shoshone

John Two Hawks

103 posts in this topic

^ That's exactly it, it's "lone wolf" not "lonely wolf." If a wolf is by itself it would indeed be very lonely. But I think Tuomas' spirit animal is likely a wolf, if the affinity he claims to feel for them is real, then that would likely be the reason. Tuomas seems to bear the traits of the wolf, but I don't know him personally, so it's hard to say. http://www.phoenixar...its/symbols.htm

... I'll just single out the wolf page here, but for fun I'll post the whole list in the culture thread if anyone wants to read about the other animals and the myths surrounding them: http://www.native-la...egends-wolf.htm

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Come on, every animal that strays from the pack is a lone one. People generally think that wolves are lonely, that's why they all use them.

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^ Well, the term has apparently been used for like over 100 years. Meanings do sometimes change, but that doesn't mean everyone'd automatically think all wolves are lone(ly)... However, logically, if all wolves are lone(ly), isn't the "lone" part of "lone wolf" bit redundant? But anyway, for example vocabulary.com says this:

 

A person who's a lone wolf is solitary and often alone, but she isn't necessarily lonely, since she prefers her solitude to socializing with others. It's a bit uncommon for a person to be a lone wolf, and it's equally unusual for an actual wolf to live and hunt alone, as wolves are naturally social animals. It does happen, though, and the figurative expression lone wolf has its roots in these solitary wolves.

 

But yeah, could be even that some people using the term know wolves tend to live in packs and some don't. :P

 

Anyway, this whole thing is quite interesting... I don't think that even the thought of someone wanting to pretend to be a Native American had really ever crossed my mind before. Intuitively I don't understand why anyone would do that, but I guess things start to make some kind of "sense" when money's brought to the equation...

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He doesn't say on that page that he named Tuomas "Shadow Soul." He says, "I call Tuomas a shadow soul." That's a very big difference in dialogue.

 

Why am I concerned? Because I'm American Indian (Eastern Shoshone Tribe, Wind River, Ft. Washakie, Wyoming). Because I grew up seeing all my friends and family face discrimination. Because I grew up seeing talented women like Nadine Vasquez and Shannon and Shauna Baker get denied work just because they are Native American (guess what? when they pretended to be Latina, they got the work that had previously been denied them--discrimination? you bet), while this white guy can claim Native American heritage and get the accolades he doesn't deserve. He doesn't understand our culture. He is misrepresenting our culture. He is abusing our culture.

 

I'm going to assume you're not familiar with Native American history. That's okay, most people aren't.

 

In 1879, all Native Americans had their culture stolen from them. Little children from 6-12 years old were ripped out of their parents' arms and put in handcuffs. If the parents tried to save their children? They were shot to death. The children, handcuffed, were then forced into boarding schools where their traditional hair was cut, where their traditional clothing was thrown away. They were told to dress and act white. They were told to speak English. Their real, sacred names were stripped way from them, and they were given new, white, meaningless names, like Frank and Jane and Bob. If the children were caught speaking their Native languages? They were poisoned with lye until they vomited blood. If the students refused to pray to Jesus Christ? They were beaten to death. You think I'm lying? Go to Carlisle, Pennsylvania and look at the boarding school cemetery that goes on for five miles.

 

And guess what? These boarding schools were still going on in 1970. My freaking parents went to these boarding schools and were permanently damaged by them. It led to my mother committing suicide.

 

For hundreds and hundreds of years, we American Indians have had white people actively steal our culture, our land, our language, everything sacred from us.

 

John Two Hawks pretending to be Native American, when he most certainly is not, is simply yet another way that settlers have invented to steal our culture.

 

So yes, real NDNs get very, very ANGRY at the fakes who exploit and prey on our culture.

 

Especially when they BADLY misrepresent what that culture stands for, as John Two Hawks most CERTAINLY has done.

 

How would you like it if somebody pretended to be your relative, while completely misrepresenting who you are, where you come from, who your family is, and what your life is about? How would you like it if somebody walked around spreading lies about you, and making money off of those lies?

 

I don't think you would like that at all.

 

*edit* And you are incorrect that no one has found objection. I linked it on the last page: People were saying this guy is a phony as far back as 2007.

 

Hey there. I haven't been on this forum in quite some time, and even longer since I was a regular, but I stumbled across this post and felt compelled to reply to you.

 

I have to say that I am so glad that you have investigated this, but more importantly, I'm grateful that you wrote this post. Really. I'm as white as they come, and I knew little about Aboriginal peoples until more recently. I know that here, they are judged very harshly and racism is quite rampant. Up until more recently (a year ago), I was just as ignorant of my privilege as a white person, and I've said some pretty ignorant things in the past. But I think I understand---as much as I can, anyway, not having your experiences---why you are so angry.

 

Second reason I write this: to tell you that you are entitled to that anger. Who wouldn't be angry, if that had happened to their family, if that had been part of their heritage? It's a terrible history. And, never apologize for being oppressed. You don't owe anyone an apology for being rightfully angry about something horrific that happened to you and your family, for generations--especially when it yielded such tragic results (I'm so sorry to hear about your mother). It's okay to be angry. Anger does not have to be a negative thing. I do not begrudge you your anger...and don't let any person tell you that what you're feeling as a result of concentrated, systemic racism is wrong. You are not wrong.

 

Third reason: I'm really surprised at this news about John Two-Hawks, and saddened that the poem is not authentic. It's just sad, when there could have been real Aboriginal artists who would have gained more well-deserved fame from the collaboration with Nightwish. While I understand that we don't really know everything (yet), the evidence seems to suggest that he has been fraudulent at least in some capacity. Very disappointing.

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I have to say that I am so glad that you have investigated this, but more importantly, I'm grateful that you wrote this post. Really. I'm as white as they come, and I knew little about Aboriginal peoples until more recently. I know that here, they are judged very harshly and racism is quite rampant. Up until more recently (a year ago), I was just as ignorant of my privilege as a white person, and I've said some pretty ignorant things in the past. But I think I understand---as much as I can, anyway, not having your experiences---why you are so angry.

 

Second reason I write this: to tell you that you are entitled to that anger. Who wouldn't be angry, if that had happened to their family, if that had been part of their heritage? It's a terrible history. And, never apologize for being oppressed. You don't owe anyone an apology for being rightfully angry about something horrific that happened to you and your family, for generations--especially when it yielded such tragic results (I'm so sorry to hear about your mother). It's okay to be angry. Anger does not have to be a negative thing. I do not begrudge you your anger...and don't let any person tell you that what you're feeling as a result of concentrated, systemic racism is wrong. You are not wrong.

 

Oh honey you have no reason to feel bad about past ignorance... :friends: We're all ignorant in some way. The distortion of Native Americans and First Nations, that's not your fault. The media distorts everything, Hollywood distorts everything, and if you've never met an indigenous person, how are you supposed to know you aren't seeing the truth?

 

Trust me, NDNs can be JUST as ignorant concerning white people. Thinking they're all rich, or that they all hate NDNs, things like that... Because if they've never met a white person then how would they know better? There's ignorance all around... But that's fine. When we talk to each other, the ignorance goes away.

 

And this was just the SWEETEST thing to read :friends: It was so kind of you to show me these words. I hear "Get over it" a lot, or "You're making me uncomfortable." I never want to make people uncomfortable, but I will NOT get over it. And when people like you show so much understanding and caring, I realize that the problem is not on my end. Thank you so much for lightening my day. :drinks:

 

Now, I want to quote this (thank you, Winterheart, for posting it) because it's quite interesting...

 

In fact Tuomas´s new Lakota name echoed something far more subtle and personal. "John was dancing around me," says Tuomas. "He burned some kind of incense, drummed, and chanted. He dubbed me Sunkmanitutanka Nagi, which means Shadow Wolf. In the Lakota tradition, the wolf is a teacher who lives in dark and shadowy places, appearing in light only from time to time to guide and teach people and other beings with his art. John said that I´m exactly that kind of a person, and I do see myself in that light. If I beleived in reincarnation, I would definately say I was a wolf in my past life. For some weird reason, I have incredible stong affinity for wolves.

 

1) That is not how you perform a Lakota naming ceremony. There is no dancing, there is no drumming or chanting, there is no incense. To perform a naming ceremony, a young Lakota goes to his/her elder and says, "I'd like a new name." The elder tells them what kind of gift they must prepare as an offering for Rainbow Woman. Then, the Lakota sleeps and records his/her dreams for a period of time. At the end of this time, the elder helps him/her interpret the dreams to find the hidden name.

 

(This ceremony is quite different in Shoshone, all you do is go down to a body of water and meditate. Those Lakota are so particular about everything...)

 

2) The Wolf is not a teacher in Lakota lore. Looks like John mixed up his tribes. Only two tribes I know of have a wolf figure as a teacher: the Kiowa and the Shoshone. (dingdingding! :giggle: ) In Shoshone stories, God has two halves, and they manifest as Wolf and Coyote. Wolf is kind, wise, and a leader. Coyote is sneaky, mischievous, and leads us astray. It's to remind us that everything in this world has the potential to be good or bad. Even God.

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^Very interesting info, shoshone. I'm also glad I see there are people that understand your anger. As you both said, history gets distorted(even here, in Greece, we are taught that we are direct descendants of Ancient Greeks like Plato or Leonidas... :fool: Whatever...

 

Baaack on topic now, I must say I have the greatest curiosity what Tuomas would have to say about all this. Is there any way the admnins or the mods to inform the band or their management about this, since it's also about one of the greatest NW songs and also the most known DVD?

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Just to repeat what mojo said a bit earlier: "We're looking into this a bit deeper to get this correctly. There are still questions that need to be clarified to get the complete picture."

Once we are satisfied that we have exhausted all contacts and questions, we will then look at what we have.

If we feel that what we have in the end is something that Tuomas should be aware of, we will talk to him about it. But right now we are still going through things with a fine toothed comb and won't bother Tuomas until we are sure.

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I'm getting really interested in this topic, and I started to read more about the Native Americans, but it's bad that I don't know how reliable sources are, especially Wikipedia. But this is something interesting I read and funny, it's quite opposite opinion, from a Lakota girl:

 

"For some odd reason, people think we sit around and think of symbols or meanings for all the animals (yeah right) The wolf means nothing in my Tribe, its an animal. Its also an animal that all the new-agers and wanna-bes claim to have spirit animals/animal guide/animal totems or some nonsense like that. Foolishness.

Oglala Lakota Sioux"

 

Sourse:

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100708132203AARvgq8

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Just to repeat what mojo said a bit earlier: "We're looking into this a bit deeper to get this correctly. There are still questions that need to be clarified to get the complete picture."

Once we are satisfied that we have exhausted all contacts and questions, we will then look at what we have.

If we feel that what we have in the end is something that Tuomas should be aware of, we will talk to him about it. But right now we are still going through things with a fine toothed comb and won't bother Tuomas until we are sure.

 

Yes, this is the best and most appropriate thing to do. I just wanted to know whether you plan to inform him or not at some point, thank you for your response :)

 

@Noisy: Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. It's a new age kind of fashion, just like it is for people that are not Nordics, and love the territory and the history, to act like ones or even use Viking names or the waaay worse, to change the vowels of their names and replace them with the ones from the Scandinavian languages (which totally change not only the vowels, but also many of the consonants before). Liking a culture and trying to act like you belong in one are two totally different things.

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@shoshone:

 

It was interesting to learn one peculiarity of the Lakota language, viz. the word order object-subject-verb.

According to Two-Hawks his translation of Tuomas´s poem is poetic Lakota language. According to your friend the translation contains lots of words which she does not recognise as Lakota and also the word order in the sentences is not correct for Lakota.

In my native language poetic expression may be slightly different from the ordinary language and dialects are certainly different from the official language, but still, the structure of the language remains the same and almost all dialect words are easily recognizable. Language is a means of communication, and therefore, it would be very strange if there were a language somewhere in the world where ordinary people would not be able to understand poetic text.

Is there any sense or is it even possible to get one more opinion about the poem translation from a person who has an academic degree in Lakota language or is otherwise a recognised expert in the Lakota language?

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2.Tuomas went to the American embassy and asked for the name of good Lakota flute player. Not google.

Didn’t he get reply from embassy to look on web because they don’t have such information?

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About the Lakota poem and the Lakota name given to Tuomas and about JTH.

I put some things together. The whole thing became a Wall of text. Click the spoiler to read. :)

 

 

As promised I did some digging, trying to bring this forward and getting some details about JTH.

It’s going back to the late ‘90s that he’s accused being a fake Lakota and this matter became more discussed in 2005 and 2010 by Lakota people and inside many native forums.

There's also a “Beware” notice out from the American Indian Heritage Support Center Betonville, Arkansas which is stated:

Individuals Operating In Arkansas: The following individuals, who either live in Arkansas or travel to the state for various events, are suspected to either exploit, misappropriate, or otherwise mislead the public on their backgrounds or qualifications. One of this names listed there is: Johnny "Two Hawks" Hill (Eureka Springs, AR area).

A few members of this forum already dug into this and and asked me by pm or email because they found forums where you can read posts about JTH being accused to be a fraud.

Please, be very careful and keep in mind these posts are no prove at all, these are opinons inside forums! Also, until today nobody reported JTH to the authorities of doing something illegal.

I’d tried to get as much detailed information as possible which was kinda hard because there isn’t that much. Anyway this is what I got.

Truth is, JTH is not enrolled as Oglala Lakota at all. Nothing is listed or archived. It's also true there is nothing about a family that ends on.. Two Hawks. These information I received from the Oglala Sioux Tribe Executive Committee, Pine Ridge Rez.

As a matter of fact, there is neither no proof that his blood “isn't” native indian heritage!!! (About how to enroll and whats all behind, shoshone already told us how this works and she knows much better than me. So, no need to repeat all that. Thanks shoshone! Everything shoshone put up here is completely true. Just to back this up.)

About the lakota poem in Creek Mary’s Blood.

I put this poem text to someone I know to ask for his opinion, David Little Elk.

He's from the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe and is a certified Lakota Language Teacher. The Cheyenne River Sioux Tribal Council proclaimed his Lakota Language book and CD’s, as well as the Little Elk Orthography, to be the OFFICIAL Lakota Language materials of the tribe. (Today David lives and teaches in/from Berlin, Germany. I wanted to make sure, we're talking about the real deal and not some wannabe. Let me asure you he is the real deal.)

 

Ok, I'm going to copy/paste the two emails he answered, one about the poem and one about Tuomas Lakota name, in here. I asked for his permission to post this and he agreed. (These emails are copy/paste from the originals and nothing had been changed or deleted by me. These are David’s words and his own opinions, explanations.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Hello Steffen

And thank you for your message.

Yes I know about John Two Hawks, and yes I know he is a white man from Texas who is pretending to be Lakota. I had a communication with him in the past and yes this man is entirely FULL OF IT! And I know of this song, as a friend of mine from Austria sent me these lyrics.

John obviously had a Lakota-English Dictionary, so some of the words he used are ok but most of his translation is grammatically incorrect. When I saw the Lakota text, I knew that this man does not speak Lakota, because the sentence structures are incorrect. Frankly I was shocked that Nightwish did not check this man out. This is the problem here in Europe. Someone dresses up like a Indian and maybe he knows a few words, and everyone here accepts it without question. I have seen this kind of activity all over Europe, John is not the only fake doing this.

Concerning the Lakota translation, the grammar is mostly incorrect, and he does not do something called "conjugation".

This is when one Lakota word could mean an entire sentence in English.

Also, in Lakota language there are several sentence forms, and it is blatantly obvious, that John does not know this information.

Simply put, the translation is really bad.

About 6 years ago, John wanted to learn Lakota from me, however he did not want to pay me. So I thought to myself, "Why is this white man from Texas who is pretending to be Lakota wanting to learn Lakota language, when he already allegedly did this really long, but horrible, translation for Nightwish?"

If you know the guys in Nightwish personally, please tell them that if they ever want a Lakota "anything" to at least do a better background check so that their product will maintain its classy image.

I am a HUGE fan of Nightwish, and whenever I see this Marys Creek video, I get really disgusted. The entire concert will blow me away, but as soon as I see John coming on the stage, to me its like someone is crapping of the diamond that Nightwish really is. Johns translation is not on the same level of classiness that Nightwish is, you know what I mean? Its like when Nightwish used John, they made a really big mistake. And John looks NOTHING like a native.

Thank you for contacting me, I really appreciate that.

David Little Elk“

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Concerning the name "Sunkmanitu tanka nagi"

I asked David the next day about the „given Lakota name“ to Tuomas and how it’s normally done and if it was done the proper way, also if it’s possible to explain this a bit more detailed because forum members are very much interested to hear about this. He was kind enough to tell me: Sure, no problem! He spend quite some time to get this sorted and a HUGE thanks to David for doing this.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Hi Steffen

Here is the information concerning getting a name in the Lakota Sioux customs. Please note that every tribe is a nation with its own culture, spirituality, ceremonies and language.

Therefore, this custom is different among the different tribes.

First of all, there is NO such ceremony called a "Name Giving" ceremony. Rather, this is a part of a ceremony called "Hunka" or "Hunkapi". This is a ceremony in which a "REAL" Lakota person "spiritually" adopts a non-Lakota person as a relative. And in the middle of this Hunka ceremony, a name will be given to the person being adopted.

The Hunka ceremony is a very elegant ceremony, in which the Lakota person asks one of his non-Lakota friends, who is like a best friend to him/her, if he/she (the non-Lakota friend) would like to be made a relative to him/her (the Lakota person).

If the non-Lakota person accepts, the Lakota person and the non-Lakota friend meet with the non-Lakota friend's family to ask if this is ok with them. If it is, then they go to the Lakota person's family and ask them the same question. If the Lakota family is ok with it, then they make preparations for their Hunka ceremony, which will take place one year from that date.

In other words, you do not do this ceremony at the drop of a hat.

 

Now if the non-Lakota person's family does not agree to this, then this Hunka ceremony is not conducted, and this is not the end of the world. If these two are really good friends, they will remain really good friends.

If the Lakota family objects, again the ceremony will not be conducted. But there will be no hard feelings.

 

Ok, so lets say that both families are ok with this ceremony. So the Lakota friend and his/her family make the preparations for this ceremony to occur one year later. At the end of this ceremony, many gifts will be given to the non-Lakota friend and his family. And this will be a HUGE feast, so they have to save up their money to buy lots of food. And buffalo meat will be used for this ceremony, and this is not always easy to get. This is very expensive today so they really have to save their money to do this ceremony.

 

Now lets say it is one year later, and all the preparations have been made. Part of this preparation includes getting either an elder, or a medicine man to conduct the ceremony. This means that the Lakota friend does NOT conduct the ceremony him/her-self. So on in other words, if this is what Mr. Two Hawks did, he broke Lakota Ceremonial Law.

 

This ceremony has some variations among different Lakota groups, but the foundation is basically the same. In the beginning, both friends will have to go through an Inipi ceremony, which is a sweatlodge ceremony, and it will be a medicine man who will conduct the sweatlodge ceremony. And it is through this ceremony, that the medicine man does a spiritual reading on the non-Lakota person to see what kind of person he is and what his talents are, because that is what the new Lakota name will be based on, for the non-Lakota friend. Medicine men have this ability to do such things.

 

So in this sweatlodge ceremony is ONLY the medicine man, the two friends and the medicine man's assistant. And a man will be sitting outside the sweatlodge door and he will open the door to the lodge before and after the ceremony, and also in between sessions, as there are four session to this ceremony in the Lakota tradition. Other tribes have a different number of sessions.

 

During that ceremony, sacred songs are sung and prayers are said. And sage is burned to attract healing spirits to help in preparing the minds of these two friends for the upcoming Hunka Ceremony. This is done to help the two friends get into the proper mindset, which includes to be HUMBLE.

 

After the sweatlodge ceremony is over, everyone in the sweatlodge comes out and they all go to the area where the Hunka Ceremony will now take place. All of this happens outside in nature, NOT inside some building or room or backstage at a concert. Then the two friends are brought to a place in the center of where both families are gathered and waiting. In the center of this area, there is some sage placed on the ground. And the two friends stand on that sage barefeet.

 

There is a part where the medicine man (or the Lakota elder) ties a medicine wheel in the non-Lakota friend's hair. Then he ties one in the Lakota person's hair next. Then there is a buffalo robe placed around the two friends and the medicine man (or Lakota elder). And the Lakota friend gives the non-Lakota friend a new shirt made of buckskin, which comes from the leather of an elk. At this point, the non-Lakota friend may give a gift to the Lakota friend. Then some cooked buffalo meat is brought in and the Lakota friend feeds the non-Lakota person. Before the non-Lakota person eats the meat, he cuts it in half and gives half to the Lakota friend. Then the two friends feed each other. Then the medicine man (or Lakota elder) gives the non-Lakota friend a Lakota name and ties an eagle feather in the non-Lakota friend's hair. And this name will be used by the Lakota family when they address their new relative. If the Lakota friend does not have his/her Lakota name by this time, he/she will get one from the medicine man (or Lakota elder) at this time, as well.

 

Then the medicine man (or Lakota elder) proclaims to all who are present that these two friends are now relatives. And the medicine man (or Lakota elder) also shouts the new relative's Lakota name FOUR TIMES. And everyone screams and shouts to welcome in the new relative to the Lakota family. And the buffalo robe is now removed from the area. And then a song is sung by the medicine man (or Lakota elder). This song is about what it means to be spiritual relatives and it does contain the new name of the non-Lakota person. BUT it is not just the new name only that is in the song. This song is sung four times.

 

While this song is being sung, the two new Hunka-relatives stand side by side and they dance in circle, as all the people present come to hug them and shake their hands. Then everyone stands behind the two new Hunka-relatives, and they start dancing in a long line. The drum beat is incredibly slow. And after everyone has greeted the new Hunka-relatives, the drumbeat changes to something called "Naslohan", which means everyone turns to the side so that each person's left shoulder is facing the right shoulder of the person standing to their left. And they do a dance where the left foot moves left one step to the left, and then the right foot drags to the left, they do this over and over until the song is finished.

 

Then everyone shouts for joy and then a HUGE feast begins. As the feast is happening, the Lakota family first feeds the non-Lakota family and then everyone else eats. Then the Lakota family presents many, many gifts such as buffalo robes (or star quilted blankets) to the non-Lakota family in attendance.

 

Then the ceremony is over.

 

This is how it is done PROPERLY and CEREMONIALLY.

There may be some variations among some Lakota Sioux tribes, but basically what I described is the foundation. Other families might add certain things to it, but they do not take anything away from what I have written.

 

When this Hunka ceremony is over, this new "relative" is ONLY considered a "relative" to the Lakota person. This new "relative" is NOT considered Lakota.

 

According to what you said, Mr. Two Hawks did everything incorrectly. Also Mr. Two Hawks is NOT a medicine man, so if he did this so-called "ceremony" himself, again he broke Lakota Ceremonial Law.

 

Again this ceremony does NOT make the non-Lakota person a member of ANY tribe. Absolutely NOT!! It only means that the non-Lakota person is now considered a "spiritual relative" to the Lakota person and his/her family who "spiritually adopted" the non-Lakota person.

 

Concerning the name "Sunkmanitu tanka nagi", this means Spirit Wolf or Ghost Wolf, but NOT "shadow" wolf.

 

The word "Sunkmanitu tanka" does mean "wolf", so that part is correct.

 

However, the Lakota word for "shadow" can be either "ohanzi" or "ohanzizi". But it is not "nagi", which means "a spirit or soul".

 

When creating the Lakota name for "Shadow wolf", the focus would be on the "shadow" part. And since in this name the shadow belongs to a wolf, you have to add a prefix to the word "ohanzi, or ohanzizi", to designate that the shadow is of a wolf. And that prefix is "ta-" which comes from the word "tawa", and this means "belonging to something or someone". So the CORRECT name would be "Sunkmanitu Tanka Ta-ohanzi".

 

So if I were to "Hunka" someone, I could not do it myself. You are not to do ceremonies for yourself in the Lakota tradition. For one thing, that is not humility, which is one of the 7 Lakota Virtues.

 

The 7 Lakota Virtues are:

Wocekiya - Prayer

Waohola - Respect

Waunsila - Compassion

Wowicake - Honesty

Wawokiye - Generosity

Wahwala - Humility

Woksape - Wisdom

 

When you are living the traditional Lakota way, you have to live ALL 7 of them the best that you can.

 

According to what I know concerning Mr. Two Hawks, he breaks all 7. He only pretends to live some of them when he can gain something for his selfish pride. This man is NOT Lakota. He is a FRAUD.

 

In the Lakota belief system, there is something called the Natural Law of Generosity. This states that the energy that you use in your communication, which includes how you live, returns to you four times as strong. This means, that this fraud really has it coming back to him in a major way. If he really was a traditional Lakota, he would know this.

 

But I know of his arrogance first hand.

When I encountered him, I asked of his family. The reason I did this is because when two Lakota people meet for the first time, they ask each other where they are from and who their grandparents are. They do this because this may reveal that the two strangers may actually be relatives. So it is Lakota Custom to ask about each others' families.

 

So I did this to him and he really avoided my questions. I did this because I have relatives among several Sioux tribes, and I thought maybe he might know of them.

 

And when I greeted him, I did it in Lakota. And he could not respond back in Lakota. I found that especially funny, since he allegedly did that translation for Nightwish in one of their songs.

 

THEN he demanded that it would be good if I were to give him my Lakota language books for free. I said I do not do that, but I suggested that maybe we could do a trade: some of his CDs for my books. He turned me down. This showed to me that this man only takes, he does not give. He will only give if there is something greater that he can gain for his own selfish pride. And that is exactly what he did when doing the fake ceremony he did for Tuomas.

 

I really wish Nightwish would have had this man checked out before they started working with him. Because working with Mr. Two Hawks is like staining something very beautiful and classy with craps.

 

I love the music of Nightwish, but when Mr. Two Hawks comes out and speaks Lakota incorrectly, while showing off his fake tan and dancing like a hollywood indian, to me that really disgraces and desecrates not only my culture but the beauty and spirit of the music of Nightwish, as well.

 

I hope this information helps.

 

Toksa ake (this means "until next time", as we do not believe in goodbye)

David Little Elk”

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To finish this. I’m not here to bash or accusing anyone of being a fraud or doing something wrong but I do trust David in this matter: Poem and Lakota name. And for that I’m personally done with Mr. JTH. Huge disappointment. My very own opinion, of course.

Steffen (mojo)

 

Edit: By team decison three swearwords inside the email copies of David Little Elk have been replaced. -mojo

 

 

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@mojo, are you able to contact Tuomas or someone from the band to tell them about this situation?

I want their opinions about this.

 

 

Edit: I'm pretty sure that Tuomas will be concerned and worried about this thing because I think that Tuomas

is such a person that when he create, he like to make a perfection.. And not a beautiful song with jibberish lyrics.

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I would like to thank shoshone for coming to forum to talk about, to David for given time to preparing such detailed answer and to mojo for helping to get information for us.

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Yes, it's very important and a huge work from all these people. Thank you from me as well. I am really worried about Tuomas now, he doesn't easily get angry but he is a sensitive man, this will not be good for him and his trust on others :notme:

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I am really impressed. Thank you very, very much for digging into this mojo (and everyone else who is)! I can't say I'm massively disappointed or anything - I guess I just don't care enough about this particular topic, or about John Two-Hawks whom I've never much cared about fraud or no fraud - but I really appreciate the fact that you digged into it and shoshone's insight as well as most other people's is really interesting. Keep it coming!

 

What I cannot believe is how no one brought this up so far. This is not a criticism! It's not like I did :P . It's genuine wonder. Once came out in 2004 - almost 10 years ago. And for almost 10 years, it has not become public that a poem on an album sold over a million times is...well, not a poem? Seriously? Among, I repeat, one million people who bought the friggin' thing, and the two or so million who probably downloaded it illegally, not ONE person has both noticed, and bothered to make it somewhat public? In 10 years, among 1 million people, shoshone really is the first to do this?

 

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe (either because it actually is unbelievable, or because I don't know enough about the circumstances). My intention is not to create any conspiracy theories, but I have to ask: has this issue actually been brought up before by someone, somewhere, but been hushed up? Or did really no one ever bother? For example this David guy, since he's known about this poem for a while now, how come he never said anything in public? Because he doesn't care enough? Because it wouldn't achieve anything? Because this kind of thing happens far too often for him to bother with this particular case? Or because he couldn't? This is a genuine question because I honestly don't understand.

I know nothing whatsoever about Native Americans and - sorry - can't say I care about them more than I care about any other people in the world. But regardless, this is a big deal! An insulting one, both to the fans and to the actual people.

 

And, second of all... Nightwish didn't know about this? Not one of them? In 10 years, this is news to them? How hard is it to actually get proper background information on the Lakota (or supposed Lakota) people you work with? Again, genuine question. Because as much as I've criticized Tuomas, somehow I don't believe he would either knowingly work with a 'fake', or purposefully avoid doing the background search so that he doesn't have to deal with authenticity. Musically, it just doesn't seem like him. So, is it very difficult to get this information? Or how come they didn't have it? Or did they and ignored it?

 

Aaah so many questions. Sorry. :P

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^Very interesting info, shoshone. I'm also glad I see there are people that understand your anger. As you both said, history gets distorted(even here, in Greece, we are taught that we are direct descendants of Ancient Greeks like Plato or Leonidas... :fool: Whatever...

Arent we?

 

As far as JTH is concerned, I think too that the band should be notified. It will spoil a bit the atmosphere of the song but truth should be revealed.

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@snowhite

 

It's really, really hard to find a resource that is trustworthy. That's the major point when you try to look up stuff about this whole issue. You have no idea how many times this was discussed inside native forums over the years. I was surprised. I don't know how many hours I spent reading native forums the last days, not only Lakota forums. Point is, there wasn't really something, only endless, useless debates, only speculations and harsh accusations. That I wasn't looking for. I don't wanted that stuff. According to David.. he's not the man running around pulling the strings to get this into the public eye. Lakota people dealing with their stuff among themselves and he had his fair share with JTH.

For us europeans or "white people" in general we took this whole thing as a given and we pretty much believed what we "saw". Why should we had asked for it. Why question this? There was no need to do so. All looked fine and nobody cared about any background. Sad but it happens.

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Arent we?

 

Direct? No. People act as if we have the same DNA, but we don't. After 3000 years, a crapload of foreign nations enslaving us, Crusaders that went through the land(and many of them actually settling here), 400 years of Ottoman enslavement, Balkan wars, and two world wars, the blood is pretty much... different :P The only chance for a nation's DNA to be kept the same after centuries is only if a)we're talking about some tribe inside a jungle where no stranger has ever gone or b)if the people don't mate(in any case) with outlanders.

 

/sorry for the off topic :blush: /

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I disagree, our languange along with customs have remained. I may not have the same DNA with Plato but I can read the ancient writings on my ancestors remnants, that is enough for me to acknowledge my origins.

 

But anyway this is not the topic to discuss this so lets leave it be. Also excuse us for the off topic.

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This thread has turned into a can of worms.

 

Mojo and Carol, why do you allow and even take part of this public dirt digging on Nightwish's official dicussion board? This will obviously harm the band whether the severe accusations of fraudulence thrown in public against John Two-Hawks will be true or not.

 

These kind of disputes between tribesmen are not uncommon. Usually it is about who has the right to obtain the status of belonging to a tribe of native people and about the power who has the right to grant such status, i.e. run the official enrollment procedure & register. We have our share of this ever-going debate in Finland among the Sami natives, hence I have a clue how harsh it can become.

 

This board isn't a court. The "evidence" brought up is but volatile: Years old posts on some discussion board and suggestions on other boards by unidentified people. If the law concerning fraud with presenting oneself as a native in the USA is as harsh as told by Shoshone, then would it even be possible to conduct such a long running act in public as John Two-Hawks has been doing? AFAIK, one doesn't have to be enrolled to any tribe in order to genuinely reach the 25% native blood inheritance which according to the law makes one a native by blood.

 

To proceed with the question of credibility, did you ever check who this Shoshone character is, the one who opened this issue here. Is she a genuine native herself? Just asking, whow do we know? Or does she have any more facts to bring on the table than her recent posts here? And why do you allow (and quote) this David Little Elk calling John Two-Hawks to be "full of crap" when you tend to suspend memebers for far less on this board? Severe slander, isn't it?

 

 

In order to avoid damaging Nightwish's reputation you should immediately lock or better yet, delete this thread and inform not only Tuomas but all the band members about the accusations against John Two-Hawks and let them decide if anything has to be done. This is not an issue to let run wild on in bublic, especially not on the Nightwish's official board!

 

I read that someone asked you to do it already, but you didn't agree and went on stirring the dirt even more by yourself. Not very loyal behaviour towards the band from you, the admins, huh?

 

 

.

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Would it be more loyal from the admins to shut their eyes if indeed there is a fraud? If not us at least the band should know and make its own search.

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It just so happens that these people that accuse John Two Hawks, bring actual arguments, and it was Shoshone that suggested we search this ourselves and even told us how. Now, this wouldn't be the case if these people lied. On the other hand, the only argument Two Hawks brought in the table was that the book is full of lies. Not very good, considering that most of the things said there about Two Hawks are actual quotes of Tuomas, hence he calls Tuomas a liar.

 

Now, "can of warms"? Be careful with your words, most people here want the truth, this doesn't give you the right to insult us.

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If all this is true, then the problem (at least from my perspective) is not that he's not a 'true', biological, blood-born part of the people. I don't think that's a problem, and I'm not sure anyone should even think that. The problem is (again, if it's all true) that he pretends he knows a lot, pretends to transfer a culture, a language, a set of traditions that - if what shoshone and David say are confirmed - he knows nothing about. That is what's insulting. If he knew the culture, if he was passionate about it, if he truly knew it at its roots and used that knowledge and passion to make a song so he can share it with us - then I wouldn't care in the slightest what blood runs in his body.

But you're not passionate about something you pretend to know the language of. You learn the language, or you just don't do it.

 

I these accusations are true, then the bashing couldn't be more appropriate!

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