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Cursarion

Misbehaving musicians - what they think or say

40 posts in this topic

I don't know if anyone's interested in discussing this, but let's see.

 

Background: Tony Kakko of Sonata Arctica commented the singer change of Nightwish in such way that caused him to be criticized. This was discussed briefly in the Anette topic, so to keep that topic from derailing, I'll post my answer here, with context (only some of it, 'cause I'm currently feeling a little lazy and I don't know if anyone even bothers to reply):

 

Well, I don't see how Tony's comment is bashing, he didn't call Anette a bad singer, a bad person or anything similar, just sort of unfit for the job and he definitely wasn't trying to be mean... So I don't understand the fuss. Even Anette herself has said worse things.

 

Hmm... And I don't think I really see why it is unprofessional to say what you think if you're a (metal) musician. You yourself are supposed to endure criticism, so why shouldn't you be allowed to criticize (especially) your peers if you feel like that? It's not like it should be dead serious, or that whoever you criticize would necessarily cry him/herself to sleep because of you. It sure isn't the nicest thing to do, as a human being, but since when is playing (metal) music about being always nice to everyone? Negative comments aren't as huge a deal as they seem. Just look at the negative comments the fans make.

I definitely agree that it wasn't really a mean comment or anything, it just felt unnecessary. Just like many of Anette's comments. I miss the times when we didn't know everything about celebrities and only judged them by their work.

^ When was that? ;P Interviews, biography books and behind the scenes films have been around a long time. And you don't really necessarily need to let the extra-musical aspects affect your judgement.

 

--

 

But well, what can (metal) musicians say? What can't they say? Why? Does their opinion matter more than someone else's? Rock 'n' roll is about rebellion, what happens to that if you say "No comment" every time instead of something negative? Should it be all about being nice? Or is there a line which shouldn't be crossed?

 

Musicians themselves have to deal with a lot of criticism, that sort of comes with a job. But while criticizing fans isn't usually very nice, smart or justified, can they criticize fellow musicians? There are plenty of examples of musicians arguing or even fighting. Is that good or bad, and how much so? At least conflicts sell, but is it bad publicity? PR has always been a big part of success, and with metal in particular shock value has been used very much.

 

Does what the artists say affect the way you see them as artists, or what you think of their works? Aside from acting plain mean or stupid, there are also political and religious views, and such.

 

For example, didn't the previous incarnation of the forum have a Therion topic, which managed to summon a band member after the discussion went to political views of that particular member? I think some people were slightly shocked (or something similar) by it.

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Call me a gossip girl, but I don't have a problem with them expressing their opinions since this shows their true character. If someone doesn't want to talk, it's her/his right, but if someone does want to, I don't see why we should tell them to schuss. They are people like all of us, and have opinions.

 

I don't accept this though when they try to manipulate fans into sympathizing for them and hating someone else. This I don't accept. You can say "hey, this x singer is a bad person for this reason" but not "this person treated me bad and used me" and everything. Trying to gather fans to your side and creating a war between them is low, I believe.

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Before internet was part of our every day lives, we didn't know as much about our favourite bands as we do know. Anette makes a great example. I like her as a singer. I might have read about her passion for fashion in an interview back in the day, but that would have been the end of that. I wouldn't have seen her blog and read all of those things she had said without really thinking about how it makes her look like to people who don't know her. I feel the same way about many other musicians as well, whom I now have read or heard too much non-work related stuff about.

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For example, didn't the previous incarnation of the forum have a Therion topic, which managed to summon a band member after the discussion went to political views of that particular member? I think some people were slightly shocked (or something similar) by it.

 

There was a Delain topic, which summoned someone from the band, but I can't remember the details

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Call me a gossip girl, but I don't have a problem with them expressing their opinions since this shows their true character. If someone doesn't want to talk, it's her/his right, but if someone does want to, I don't see why we should tell them to schuss. They are people like all of us, and have opinions.

I think this is something worth remembering. Some fanatic fans seem to take their idols' opinions quite seriously. Far too seriously, in my opinion.

 

 

I don't accept this though when they try to manipulate fans into sympathizing for them and hating someone else. This I don't accept. You can say "hey, this x singer is a bad person for this reason" but not "this person treated me bad and used me" and everything. Trying to gather fans to your side and creating a war between them is low, I believe.

That indeed is quite low. It's reasonable to for example appeal to your fans in some situations, but turning them into pawns in your personal war is taking it too far. I hope the fans who have fallen victims to manipulation realize it at some point and lose their respect towards the artist.

 

 

Before internet was part of our every day lives, we didn't know as much about our favourite bands as we do know.

That does indeed make it easier. Has there been any artist who has created the opposite effect? Someone appearing smarter than you would've guessed? Although, I think it'd be good to point out that people may have obviously different reactions to same texts - as it's the artist revealing something of him/herself, and it's up to everyone individually to have an opinion about that.

 

 

There was a Delain topic, which summoned someone from the band, but I can't remember the details

Hmm, that rings a bell too, but I don't really remember either.

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I think this is something worth remembering. Some fanatic fans seem to take their idols' opinions quite seriously. Far too seriously, in my opinion.

 

I agree. It's only a sign of a healthy admiration when you find yourself disapproving or even just disagreeing with some things your favourite artist says/does, but still be able to enjoy the music and the magic it creates. No matter how I dislike Anette's personality, I won't ever skip an Imaginaerum song. The magic is there no matter what.

 

[but we must always be able to separate this from something more important, like the Therion incident you mention, it was because some people thought that Chris is a racist. I know he isn't, but I would not want to be fan of a person that has such views and give money to him/her. I know there are people who don't care even if their favourite artist is a murderer (Burzum, anyone? :P ), but I do care, at least for the important stuff, like racism and violence.]

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I'm fine with people criticizing others, until they start making money off of doing so. I don't know whether Toni was paid for that interview, but either way, the interview is getting a ton of views since it was posted on Anette's blog. Either way, I don't think Toni himself is making any additional money based off of his comment. I also don't think Anette is/would be losing money or ventures, so I don't think that would count as slander of character, either.

 

I'm not, however, fine with celebrities criticizing their fans. This happens a lot during presidential races here in the US; a celebrity will say something critical or insulting to the opposing party, not realizing that many of their fans are of that political affiliation. Anyway, causes a lot of rage. I don't respect celebrities who insult fans, or insult the fans of other's, etc.

 

I think Magnus and I was discussing the Sharon Osbourne vs. Lady GaGa thing, anyway, I don't respect that Sharon demanded of Lady GaGa to control her fans. Like GaGa can really get people to stop making fun of Kelly Osbourne because they happen to be GaGa's fans? I like Lady GaGa, and if she (or any other musician) told me to do something, I'd be like... screw that! GaGa seems to refer to her fans as "Little Monsters," and I don't agree to that, same as the days with Slipknot calling their fans "Maggots." (I find that a bit tasteless). Anyway, this turned into a public thing where basically fans of Lady GaGa were criticized, and that sure made a lot of people rage face. I like her music, but some people LOVE her music, and got insulted.

 

Just like some people LOVE Anette, and get insulted when other celebrities they love (such as Toni) say critical things of her. Bleh. Who knows? Some people hold their idles all too near and dear to their hearts, in my opinion.

 

 

As for what they "should" and "should not" do, well, I don't really have a say, but in a perfect world they should...

-Only criticize objectively, and not for monetary gain/publicity. If they personally know the person, I think they should be very careful what they say, as feelings can get hurt.

-Not criticize fans, or fans of others. This is basically because one public figure badmouthing a group of fans of another public figure (who may share a fanbase) basically calls out a whole hell of a lot of people, and that's never good.

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There was a Delain topic, which summoned someone from the band, but I can't remember the details

 

I'm not sure but as far as I remember it was about them being or not being metal, and Martijn stepped in and said they don't define themselves as metal.

 

I think musicians have even more right to comment on other musicians than fans. The Tony thing is perfect, if a random person on the net says Annette doesn't fit the band, whatever, but this guy has been a metal band singer for over 10 years. He actually knows what he's talking about. They have more credibility than most fans. Who but a successful artist is supposed to know what it takes to practice that profession?

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I can't watch the video right now so I don't know what Toni said exactly, but personally I'm happier that he directly stated his view on the situation than I would have been if he had beat around the bush and said some neutral diplomatic blahdyblah like Eicca Toppinen of Apocalyptica did when the news first broke (sure, maybe he really honestly didn't know there was anything wrong - but I kind of doubt it as metal circles in Finland are so small that I hear stuff from friends who are friends with various members of various bands).

In fact, in general a passive-aggressive "no comment" can (depending on context of course) be a lot more harmful IMO because instead of stating something directly it implies, which makes people speculate.

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@Serious Sam:I still don't think what he said about her not fitting since she comes from a different scene is something that bad, even though Anette always gets annoyed when people say that she doesn't belong to the scene. Well, she never actually did anything to fit, or to show some appreciation anyway :dunno:

 

His words about how much more happier NW are now and that they feel like a band again- this was more harsh, I can understand her annoyance, but not her reaction. She's reacting like a teenage girl.

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^ Oh well, she is pregnant and is probably not at her most balanced and sensible at the moment. :dunno:

 

ETA: As for Toni's comment about the band being happier, well... everyone can see it, so he was merely stating a fact. Of course she can take offense at that, but that doesn't mean Toni was being offensive.

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Then she has been pregnant for the last 5 years, since her reaction to everyone that happens to believe that she doesn't belong to the scene is pretty much like this. Metal fans are close-minded etc...

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Oh, I know, not defending her behaviour in general, just considering the possibility that the pregnancy is making her even more childish. :P

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Like I said, I'm sure he would not have appreciated hearing another person who might have toured with them dishing on their problems from behind the scenes that he might have witnessed. It is unprofessional and not really his thing to talk about. Saying "no comment" doesn't have to be passive aggressive either. Reporters often fish for these kind of comments because they want to create celebrity feuds.

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@Morrigan: Yep, I know, I am not arguing you :P It's just that... daaaamn girl, control yourself, people that work/have worked with you have access to the internet. And all these words about "I know inside stuff", this is very pathetic for me. Do you have inside info? Then share it. If you don't want to, don't even mention it. Using it to get more sympathy and turn fans to your side is just... low.

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I agree with that as well. Nightwish were the ones who kept it classy this time around. Who knew? :P

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^It seems that NW learned their lesson with Tarja. Not only when it comes to appreciation and respect from the fans, but also from a more humanitarian side.

Now, Anette only seems to make herself look more and more like the victim and mistreated, to her fans. It has only benefited her, so far. But I don't think that'll last. She's building castles on sand, creating a fanbase based on sympathy... It won't last.

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I know there are people who don't care even if their favourite artist is a murderer (Burzum, anyone? :P ), but I do care, at least for the important stuff, like racism and violence.]

*cough* But he makes so good music! A few other murderers have made good music too, even spectacularly beautiful music. Though, Vikernes said something like it was self-defence and the numerous cuts came from shards from a window, but I don't really blindly accept his side.

 

I'm generally able to listen to music regardless of the artist's religious, political or other views, criminality, stupidity, arrogance or even actual evilness. There have been some cases where the music has been tainted at least temporarily, but it's been quite easy to me to concentrate on the music. I don't really think listening to music x supports beliefs or actions of artist y in any way.

 

 

I'm fine with people criticizing others, until they start making money off of doing so.

Heh, Simon Cowell might be the lowest low of this.

 

Hmm, does this also mean that if it's for example a paid interview, they should just say "no comment"? If an interviewer is paying the artist to get him/her to respond, wouldn't "no comment" be bit disrespectful? Though, should the interviewer be asking such questions in the first place?

 

I'd draw the line somewhere between saying what you think and starting to make a living out of bashing people.

 

 

I'm not, however, fine with celebrities criticizing their fans.

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Like GaGa can really get people to stop making fun of Kelly Osbourne because they happen to be GaGa's fans?

Saying something like "all fans of x something negative" is clearly bit too much. And if GaGa didn't start it, she isn't really responsible, so the connection isn't justified... But if Gaga'd be behind it, inciting her fans to make fun of Kelly Osbourne, I'd put blame on both GaGa and the fans doing that. I think there have been cases like that too.

 

Also, is Justin Bieber an exception? :D He and his fans have often a hard time.

 

 

Just like some people LOVE Anette, and get insulted when other celebrities they love (such as Toni) say critical things of her. Bleh. Who knows? Some people hold their idles all too near and dear to their hearts, in my opinion.

Feeling insulted for someone else is something I've never understood... I guess such fans might be too close to the idol, in a way.

 

 

His words about how much more happier NW are now and that they feel like a band again- this was more harsh, I can understand her annoyance, but not her reaction. She's reacting like a teenage girl.

That was actually him quoting Tuomas about the band being whole again part.

 

 

I think musicians have even more right to comment on other musicians than fans. The Tony thing is perfect, if a random person on the net says Annette doesn't fit the band, whatever, but this guy has been a metal band singer for over 10 years. He actually knows what he's talking about. They have more credibility than most fans. Who but a successful artist is supposed to know what it takes to practice that profession?

This is actually an excellent point. You'd think that advice from someone more experienced wouldn't be something to get upset over, especially if it's not destructive, if not always constructive either.

 

In this case it might be that she didn't ask for his opinion, but he wasn't really even trying to bash. It wasn't really advice either, just a relatively neutral statement.

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She is hurting herself, for sure. All because of her addiction to that blog. I've seen both politicians and other musicians hurt their reputation in similar ways through tweets.

 

I also never got he thing about fans being offended by other people saying negative things about their favourite musicians. Some people defend them like they're family!

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*cough* But he makes so good music! A few other murderers have made good music too, even spectacularly beautiful music. Though, Vikernes said something like it was self-defence and the numerous cuts came from shards from a window, but I don't really blindly accept his side.

 

I'm generally able to listen to music regardless of the artist's religious, political or other views, criminality, stupidity, arrogance or even actual evilness. There have been some cases where the music has been tainted at least temporarily, but it's been quite easy to me to concentrate on the music. I don't really think listening to music x supports beliefs or actions of artist y in any way.

 

Hmm, generally I don't disagree. Besides, it's Black Metal right? It would be a treason if he was pink bubbles :P It's just about some principles each and every one of us has. That doesn't mean that others should have it. About the last sentence, it kinda does if you give money to the said artist.

 

ps. About the line, I know it was a quoting from Tuomas :) It's just that Tony said it in such an enthusiastic way, I get why this must annoyed her ;) It must have hurt her pride.

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I'll still give a listen to Anette's solo stuff, if she ever releases anything. She hasn't been presenting the world the best possible image of herself lately, but her voice still has potential, especially and possibly even only with goods songs. After all, I listened to Symfonia too, despite everything Timo Tolkki did.

 

And well, like I said earlier elsewhere, I think negative comments are quite common in music, also or even especially metal. But in many cases, stuff like "Their new album is crap" isn't really that big a deal, it can even be sort of humour. I don't really see anyone legitimately being harmed by that kind of stuff. And then sometimes things get exaggerated, far beyond the level of Nightwish feuds. But, if you're interested in the scene, you're not only interested in the music itself, but also the people who make the music. Their stories generally tend to be interesting, also when they praise or bash someone.

 

 

Like I said, I'm sure he would not have appreciated hearing another person who might have toured with them dishing on their problems from behind the scenes that he might have witnessed. It is unprofessional and not really his thing to talk about. Saying "no comment" doesn't have to be passive aggressive either. Reporters often fish for these kind of comments because they want to create celebrity feuds.

You've sort of got a point there, what he's seen in backstage is Nightwish's business. But well, he didn't go to details, and what he means might not be "problems" per se. Hard to say without knowing what he means.

 

And well, if a journalist would keep asking an artist more or less irrelevant question with a clear intention of drama-stirring, the artist might not give another interview to that journalist. I think journalists generally understand that, so it might be at least the interviewer doesn't even always make the juiciest story possible.

 

 

Hmm, generally I don't disagree. Besides, it's Black Metal right? It would be a treason if he was pink bubbles :P

Well, there are some black metallers who work in very not-metal places, such as kindergartens. :D I don't think they're any less or worse because of that, either. There are also some fanatical fans in black metal too, which I consider rather weird as the bands often sing about being an individual and true to yourself, etc. Then some fans misunderstand the point and copy the artists directly.

 

 

About the last sentence, it kinda does if you give money to the said artist.

Well, the money is for the music. Most artists don't make a living with their musical income, let alone can support their ideologies/activities with that income. So, a bad person shouldn't get a compensation for his/her work?

 

Then again, there are some "bands" which are quite blatantly propaganda, but those tend to lack in the musical aspects anyway so they aren't usually worth listening.

 

 

ps. About the line, I know it was a quoting from Tuomas :) It's just that Tony said it in such an enthusiastic way, I get why this must annoyed her ;) It must have hurt her pride.

Enthusiastic? Naah... He's clearly quoting the enthusiasism too, and it isn't even anywhere near the roof. ;p

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Well, there are some black metallers who work in very not-metal places, such as kindergartens. :D I don't think they're any less or worse because of that, either. There are also some fanatical fans in black metal too, which I consider rather weird as the bands often sing about being an individual and true to yourself, etc. Then some fans misunderstand the point and copy the artists directly.

 

Well, the money is for the music. Most artists don't make a living with their musical income, let alone can support their ideologies/activities with that income. So, a bad person shouldn't get a compensation for his/her work?

 

Hmm it's a very tricky question, this one. Not from you, but from the perspective of principles vs justice. Work, especially good work, must be rewarded. But from the ones that do enjoy it. I say it for these artists that try to "pass" their ideas through their music. There are artists that are racists, there are violent (mostly in RnB or whatever genre it is that they sing about killin' sum niggas and beatin' sum ...prostitutes and whatever, and some metal bands too, that too promote violence). And also the bands that promote satanic rituals, although a hell lot of them do this just for the sake of shocking and provoking and to appeal to this kind of people.

 

This is the kind of artists I would not give my money to. But again, this is me, and I see it in the same way I wouldn't vote for the racist party in my country.

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It kinda fits here I think. Basically end of last year I made a blog post about celebrities airing dirty laundry on their own blogs. I thought I'd paste what I rambled about here (in spoiler as not short)

 

 

Blogging and credibility

Some people enjoy reading other people's blogs and some people loathe it. However celebrity blogs are commonly read by people who fall into both these categories.

I've witnessed recently a divide of people who read a celebrity blog, some claim it's nothing but attention seeking and at times childish, while others hang on the posters every word.

Do blogs really go too personal sometimes? In my opinion, yes. I've blogged for a while though not very regular and I find sometimes as I'm typing, things get wrote down without thinking too much about what I've wrote. But who am I? I'm just a Jane Doe going through life and writing stuff down which makes sense to me, but probably only the minority will understand me fully. For a celebrity, every blog is scrutinized and ripped apart. Some people seem to get caught up, and for want of a better word, starstruck when reading the celebrity blog. Meaning for them that person can do no wrong. Whatever they have posted, the reader will defend. However looking from an objective angle, sometimes you can read the posts and think 'oh boy why on Earth did you post that?'.

Sometimes you can say things you really shouldn't on a blog. As I'm writing this now, it's hard not to go in full on rant about some things I've read recently etc. For a 'Jane Doe' who cares? It's our opinion and we are only small fry so what we say really doesn't ripple the ocean so much. But when a celebrity posts something they really should not of, the ripples turn into tidal waves and then act all innocent and bemused it cause so much controversy. Some people just seriously do not think before they type. Sometime emotion takes over them and they have a good old rant and then post it publicly for thousands to read. I've done this myself and I think majority have. Perhaps its not a blog, maybe its an email or a text message, regardless of the format most of us done it. Now I know from my experience its never usually a good outcome, so if needed I use a trick told to me by a good friend. Rant away as much as you like, type type and type some more. Once it's done, read it, then delete it.

Some celebrities have made this mistake countless times over. Some say they have not learned, some say they don't care and just want the drama for attention, some say diva who gives a crap about anyone but themselves and some say they are entitled to air rants/dirty laundry/disputes in public. Personally I'm a mix, sure you are entitled to say what you want, but you have to word it the right way. There are ways of saying what you want without it sounding like you're on your high horse and you're the best and infinitely right in everything you say and do. But some topics are a no go. Sometimes some things should not be public, these ones are usually the biggest in splitting the category of blog readers.

Whatever your 'category' of reader, I think we can all agree that sometimes you just have to keep your mouth shut.

 

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Nice one, Carol. I agree, although I would like to say, that if a person really is on his/her high horse, and really does believe all these things he/she says, then where would he/she find the sense not to express them via his/her blog? Usually this kind of people want the whole world to know, to adore them, they want to see all these praising comments. It's natural, especially for people that like attention.

 

There are others, especially not from pop genres, that don't want that, that they want their privacy. And there are many that want to use this publicity to speak about important matters. This is different, and these artists usually don't have the type of fans you described above following them.

 

Many times people post rants not only to take out their anger, but to make people feel sympathetic towards them. They may not even be doing it on purpose; we all like it when people take our side. But this only makes things worse.

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Expressing their opinion on other artists isn't necessarily bad in itself, I mean if they're talking about their music they have just as much right as any random fan to say what they think, even moreso because, like Sam said, they are musicians themselves and know what they're talking about better then some ordinary fan. I don't think it's necessarily bad if they say comment on something less music-related and more business-related, like the fact that throwing beer-cans at your fans or being 2 hours late for a meet&greet was unprofessional. I would prefer it if they would find a more neutral way of expressing their disapproval because I value discretion and diplomacy very much and I think they have a tremendous impact on how much you are valued and respected by those around you. Also because I studied Pr for years and have it imprinted in my head that elegance and minding your own business are golden when it comes to public relations. I certainly draw the line though at making personal remarks and expressing things about the actual person behind the artist. Oh, if who they are as persons affects who they are as artists (which it definitely does, because you can't be an inconsiderate artist who doesn't show up for concerts if you aren't an inconsiderate and careless person in general), then by all means it's open to discussion (in the delicate way I mentioned before), but only as far as it's relevant to the artist. When it goes into personal teritory, then it's distasteful.

 

Saying "no comment" doesn't have to be passive aggressive either.

 

Usually saying "no comment" only stirs up trouble because it makes people wonder what exactly are you hiding and why don't you want to comment on it. A neutral, yet firm answer that suggests they aren't ever going to get any juicy stuff from you is preferable.

 

Like GaGa can really get people to stop making fun of Kelly Osbourne because they happen to be GaGa's fans?

 

I think you are underestimating the influence an artist has on his rabid fans. Yes, I do believe that Lady Gaga could get people to stop making fun of Kelly Osbourne, as she was the one that got them to make fun of her and brought her to their attention in the first place. And even if she can't control all her fans, she can certainly can make it clear that she disapproves of this instead of condoning it. Also, people seriously think Sharon wasn't right to address Lady Gaga? The woman wrote an open letter in which she harshly criticised her daughter. Whether Gaga was right or not and whether Sharon is a public figure or not, let's not forget that Kelly is her daughter. Not some random artist, not a friend, not a band member, but her daughter. It's only natural she'd jump to her defense and for how hysterical and bitchy I know Sharon to be, she was actually quite tame and civil this time.

 

As far as how what an artist does behind stage affects my opinion on him, for me there are three distinct things - the person, the artist, the music - and they don't interfere much in my mind. Of course the person is behind both the music and the artist and it directly affects them, but as far as it doesn't negatively interfere with the two, I really couldn't give a rat's ass on what type of person one is (if I comment on it, it's probably because I'm bored or happen to be in the vecinity of an interesting discussion on this matter, but it bears no real interest to me). Similarly, if the artist is unprofessional and shows up drunk on stage, then I probably won't be going to his concerts anytime soon, but not as a protest or anything, just as a way of conserving my time, money and good mood and it's not going to affect whether or not I like the music. When I listen to music, it's just between me and what I'm hearing. If what I'm hearing is beautiful, then there could be hell behind it, all that matters to me is the beauty of the music.

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