Baki

Tarja Turunen

2,477 posts in this topic

 

The only thing I don't understand is why Tarja - the Fairy Queen, as Winterheart puts it - suddenly becomes evil looking when the ninjas catch up with her (gaunt, dark make up) and then nice looking again when she is found by the others. :dunno:  

 

She looking evil because she is fighting;)

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Just received the single today and wow, the demo version is by far superior to the album version! Why on earth did they re-arrange the chorus to sound like a bland rock tune in the final version? It was amazing the way it originally was! Sounds like Garbage on steroids, and I'm loving it! Her voice is also not buried in total loudness in the demo!

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I am disappointed with the video, I expected something connected to the sati ritual in India, it'd have fitted the photoshoot, this way it's just one more cheap-looking video by Tarja. 

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The dark, cloaked figure as a villain was hardly created by Tolkien. It is as old as villains. Darkness is scary to many people and so black is often associated with fear and evil. Furthermore, obstructed faces can't be read and are always mysterious, so when you want a dark, mysterious villain, the black cloak and/or mask is the usual archetype. Saying she pinched them from The Lord of the Rings is like saying the Batman films stole the idea of the hero fighting some evil villain while being plagued by his own darkness. :rolleyes: They are old, bland standby character and story models, they belong to no one, and to everyone. What makes LotR a standout tale is not the story - it's just the tired old hero-goes-on-a-quest-and-after-much-trial-triumphs plot line - but the way the story is told. That's what separates a true masterpiece from its common counterparts.

 

They used an industrial background because it is very bland and structured, providing the ideal prison for the "victims" who are trapped in a bland, structured existence.

 

The dust isn't dust, it is a symbol, it's not just Tarja frolicking about flinging stuff at people. What she is giving them is the inspiration, the "color" to free themselves from the bland, uninspired "black and white" lives they are leading.

 

All three "victims" are artists. They are confined by the single note, the single color, of black. (Though it is technically a neutral, not a color :P ) What the dust represents is artistic freedom: A range of notes for the musician rather than a single, droning note. A range of colors for the painter to allow him to express himself fully. The dancer received the will to dance from Tarja and inspiration from the paintings and the music.

 

They all melded into one. All art is unique, and yet, it's all the same. The same is true for the artists themselves. It is all expression - individuality, it cannot exist when constrained - when forced.

 

A ritual is a method, a set way of doing things, a tradition or sorts. (The definition is broad, actually, but in this case I think this is the one to use.) They are the victims of a system which forces them to do things in a certain, predetermined fashion. But art can't thrive in that environment, it has to flow freely, it has to be individual.

 

Tarja wasn't defeated per se, the villains weren't her's to defeat to begin with, she was an aid only. The villains were the anti-artists - the representation of the things that plague artists - and so they plagued the three "victims," each of whom represents a type of artist. THEY had to defeat the villains - they had to overcome their own demons in order to succeed. Tarja merely gave them the tools they needed to realize their potential and the will to stand and fight for their art. She couldn't do it for them, she could only help them along the way, their success had to be their own.

 

That is how I see it anyway. :dunno:

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@Apsara:

 

Dark, evil and covered creatures must have existed in mythology, folklore and literature a long time before Tolkien. I addition to these common features Tolkien´s  Nazgul had no body and they disappeared into nothingness after their death. It might have been possible that Tolkien did not originally invent the Nazgul but he and later the film director Jackson definately popularised the Nazgul. So, it is logical to presume that the director of Tarja´s video Victim of Ritual (VoR) utilised the Nazgul as a model when he visualised four dark, evil, cloaked and masked creatures whose bodies disappeared completely after their destruction. Any artist  is naturally allowed to  utilise the Nazgul, vampires, werewolves and other generally known dark creatures in his or her art. I mainly criticise the repeated (2x) dying of Tarja in her videos,  see it  overdramatisation when Heroine Tarja is killed  in VoR for helping people to discover their creativity and regard this as a cheap trick.  There are also incoherent things and poorly shot scenes in VoR.

Anybody with normal comprehension understands that the coloured dusts in VoR have a metaphorical meaning, a white dust might lead our thoughts to other options.

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I really really liked the VOR video. I like the idea, and Apsara really explained it very well, I share her interpretation (congrats! :acute: ).  Has anybody else been mesmerized by the dancer ? It's just... pure beauty, especially the parts in which he's dressed in white and dancing in the light, sooooo emotional! Wish it lasted longer on the screen :sigh: .

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I quite liked the video!And the song is good!I think that this record company understands her indentity as an artist more than the other one, the way that song flows (and the video too) shows a bit more of creative freedom.I really hope I can catch her in this new tour, and also in the gig that she will do in Sao Paulo with Angra next month!

Btw, I don't know if you guys know,she will be a special guest on the new Angra (brazilian power metal band) 20 years of Angel's Cry album celebration tour, in august 25th,along with Fabio Leone and Uli Jon Roth.Their guitarrist Kiko Loureiro played with her  for My Winter Storm tour.We don't know which song she will be guest, but I'm guessing that it's gonna be Wuthering Hights cover again.

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I hope it won't be a fail again this time, coz last time they had so many technical problems 

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^Yeah I thought about it too when I heard the news,but I don't think that they will have the same issues because the show will be in an indoor venue this time.
The first time was in Rock in Rio, it's a huge festival with lots of bands, and the whole thing was pretty bad.A few of the tech people got fired after the gig,and Angra's vocalist quit the band shortly after too.This is why they are playing with Fabio Leone as a touring guest singer (the other vocalist was actually their second frontman,sounds familiar? lol).
I think it was poorly organized,just bad luck, lack of rehearsals and stuff like that, at least from what I saw in youtube,I don't know...I'm hoping that will be different this time too.

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I agree with Apsara that the main source of creativity lies within the artists themselves. The VoR video is overdramatized and poorly conceived to tell a coherent story. I feel that Tarja herself is a victim of routine, she loves exaggerated and overdramatized things.

 

Inconsistencies bother me. How come does Heroine Tarja lose the battle instantly and die even if she possesses a powerful magic tool, the colored dusts? And when she dies, the artist´s palette turns all black, the dancer´s feet freeze and the player´s note sheet shows only one note as if they had lost all their creativity. IMO it would have been better not to kill anybody, show the villains as thieves instead of deadly, evil creatures, show only a partial loss in the artists´ capacities when their heroine faces danger and not blur the metaphorical meaning of the colored dusts. The dusts are a magic tool which enables people to find their creativity and hidden talents and start leading a fulfillling and good life. The dusts symbolize positive and constructive things but are used in the video also as a weapon for a destructive purpose. Besides, the fighting scenes look very clumsy when dusts are thrown by hand.

 

Had I been an assistant director in the making of VoR I would have suggested the following. The thieves try to snatch the heroine´s multicolored bag where she carries a precious supply of magic dusts. The heroine spreads around herself a protective cloud of bright-colored dusts and tries to escape. The artists run to help her, use what they have at hand as weapons (boards for throwing or hitting, note stand for hitting and dancer´s strong legs for kicking) and drive the thieves out of the building. Tarja wears stiletto-heeled shoes in the video, but  her using them as a weapon might perhaps look too vulgar.

 

The VoR video has a good metaphor but the final product is less good. There certainly are much worse videos than VoR, e.g. the film part of Nightwish´s Over the Hill and Faraway is rubbish with no plot at all.

 

Edit: I had a close look at Tarja´s Colours in the dark cover picture. I regard the picture as distasteful and culturally incorrect, because it looks like poor Asian men are worshipping Tarja.

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Devoted religious people tend to get offended by all sorts of things, so I wouldn't bother with being politically correct with them 24/7. 

As for the CITD cover, I just think it is a consequence of the lack of clear concept and idea, not an intention to offend moslems or whomever. 

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Honestly, I'm too lazy to re-check the cover now, but the men with covered heads could well be Sikhs, not Muslims, although don't take this for granted, I'm not sure about Indian folk clothing details. 

And to be honest, I highly doubt that devout Muslim men who would be offended by a woman revealing the upper part of her chest on an album photo would bother to listen to a female rock singer (who actually has worn some much more revealing outfits in public before, by the way) coming from a heathen country, and who admittedly had pre-marital sex anyway. 

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Winterheart-273@ I habe believe than were Indian people on her Cover :unsure: . Because she has make a Photoshooting in India.
 

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The cover apparently has nothing to do with Islam religion, it was shot in India in the Holi festival, as it was already discussed here. The tradition of using coloured dust has inspired other artist as well btw, and I don't see nothing wrong in that. It's a beautiful tradition, and people can get inspired by it, without such silly accusations that the artists are showing disrespect. And I don't see why Tarja should be accepted as some goddess in that picture. She is in the middle of a crowd if you pay attention, she is not in front of these people, but among them. I don't think the idea is that she is worshiped or something, she's just in this whole thing, jeez, no need to get fanatic how Tarja insults cultures, religions and what not.

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To me, the men on the CITD cover look like Indians or Bangladeshis. About 15% and 90% of Indians and Bangladeshis are Muslims, respectively. Sikh men cover their head and long hair with a turban, I don´t see turbans in the pictures. Not all Muslim men cover their head and non-Muslims may also cover their head. Tarja and all of us should treat people representing other cultures and religions with respect. Tarja´s CD cover shows  her standing above sitting or kneeling South-Asian men with whom  she  has nothing in common.   It is not a respectful picture of these men irrespective of their religion(s).

So standing above the sitting men is considered disrespectful? I should have told that to all my teachers and professors. 

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I want to treat people in a fair way. Now when I have learned about the Holi Festival, during which the pictures for Tarja´s CD cover were taken I have revised my previous posts. Holi is a Hindu festival, so the men in the pictures are Hindus, not Muslims. It is a religious festival, but also a joyful festival, during which people throw colored dusts or spray colored liquids at each other and celebrate wildly.

 

I am not a fanatic, far from that. Living abroad for many years among different cultures and religions has made me very sensitive in cultural and religious things and  very cautious not to offend other people´s feelings in these issues. Tarja and her photographer should not have combined in the same picture Hindus and Tarja, who looks like a Western Christian  (well, a secular Christian but still a Christian, in additon   the British ruled and exploited India for a long time). Tarja looks now like a  fake Hindu Deity  (or a Western Ruler ) in the Holi celebration pictures. There  are Indians or Hindus who do not care about the pictures but there are definately  people who would be enraged if they see pictures like these.

 

I include a link here, it is an article telling how Christians are persecuted in India, some have even been killed by fanatic Hindu nationalists.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-persecution-on-the-rise-in-india-grim-outlook-for-2012-66358/

 

I read more about Holi on internet.and leaned about the less pleasant side of this festival. Search words Holi and harassment give more than 1,4 million hits. Holi is a good excuse for   men to get intoxicated and harass women, and  it also gives a good chance to all kinds of bullies. Women are advised not to go out alone during the Holi festival in India, they will be groped and subjected to indecent shouts and gestures,. Now I understand why there are only Indian men on Tarja´s CD cover. I also read that at least part of the cheap dyes used during Holi  are harmful for humans and environment. 

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I can agree with you that this photo can be criticised from a post-colonial perspective, of a white woman being portrayed as superior to "coloured" subordinates, but, with all due respect to Tarja, I believe she's too clueless about these things and theories to have done it on purpose or with bad intention (pardon my elitist snobism, but the fact that Coelho is her favourite writer tells volumes :P). While I would def. object to people consciously employing these "othering" techniques in politics and "serious" culture, I believe Tarja here just came to be a victim of her ignorance or simple oblivion of these issues. 

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Don't you think some of you are analyzing too deep all of this?  :blink: ... it's just a cover and a video, If you watch the latest interviews I posted, Tarja said it has nothing to do with anything religious. 

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I think it's also worth noting Tarja's personal preferences in her artistic expression. She obviously has a love of story-telling and symbolism, and often uses her artwork, videos and lyrics to tell stories. She likes to create roles for herself in order to convey her meaning.  She's not Tarja, she's a figure - e.g. death, unknowableness, nirvana . Whatever it is, she's just showing us her vision, not explaining. I often get the feeling that she expects people to pick up on this themselves, and her meaning is not always explicitly clear. Either way, I doubt she would consider that the covers could be in any way offensive, since she is no more "herself" than when she sings certain lyrics from the first person, eg, "I'm the one who leaves shadows..."

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I am pleasantly surprised by both the song and the video. When I first listened to Victim Of Ritual, the first part was like ok but then the half other part was bombastic, the style that I definitely love. I do hope that the other songs from the album will keep up with this superiority, if not surpass ( as for me Never Enough is kinda a thumb-down).

 

As creative as her idea is, I still find the album cover is executed pretty poorly. I mean, the photoshop work for the melting colours (I suppose) is quite amateurish. All in all I do believe this album's worth any anticipation ;)

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The Song is awesome! i like the bombastic part! the guitars sound finally great

 

edit; and it doesnt sound like its live from a living room! wlb had that sound..

 

Never Enough disappointed me! the live Versionwas so great, that version as a Studioversion would have been as great as VOR! But the actual one sounds so metal forced!

Feels like In for a Kill which has been epic by its first live orchestra performance,and it was turned into a rockier versiontoo and lost a part of its epicness!

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Perhaps my personal taste is very different to others ... At first when I heard the trailer of Victim of Ritual I thought it was good ... but when I heard and watched the entire MV now I was not to keen on it... I don't know what it is... it just does not impress me ... I might grow and like it in the future

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500 Letters sound pretty good!

 

 

Her studio vocals for this album seem to be her best since Century Child, which excites me!

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