*Dandelion*

Anette Olzon

2,464 posts in this topic

On 01/12/2017 at 0:43 AM, Ahasverus said:

I Walk Alone was also not written by Tarja. Songwriters will take everything they can take.

"I Walk Alone" is something of a different case though. It was written by professional songwriters with the specific aim of being performed by another artist - specifically, the first solo album (I'm not counting HI here) by an artist who was previously known for being in a famous band. (Also I'm not sure I'd class it as a "diss" track really, but that's a discussion for the Tarja thread). Jani didn't write these songs with the purpose of them appearing on an Anette solo album, he wrote them for a project that he was leading and that Anette happened to be doing the vocals for. By his own admission, at least one of the songs had been kicking around in his head for years, he just hadn't gotten around to finishing it yet. Similarly, in Nightwish Tuomas writes lyrics from his own perspectives, based on his own life, feelings and things that interest him. He might theoretically take inspiration from something that happened to Floor, or Tarja, or Anette, or Marco, but the lyrics are primarily a vehicle for his spirit (to borrow a phrase :P) not designed to resonate with the current vocalist (though I'm sure some of them do). Jani and Tuomas are different people, so Jani may well choose to write from other perspectives, but I'm not sure that the comparison to IWA really works here.

I agree that songwriters will take everything they can get - but whilst the lyrics of Dead to Me CAN be interpreted to refer to a friendship or working relationship gone sour, I would say that the more obvious interpretation is that of a toxic former relationship. If Jani was specifically writing this song to be an anti-Nightwish diss track for Anette, then I would expect it to be more easily applied to the band situation. By that reasoning, surely Jani is much more likely to have been inspired by the end of Anette's first marriage, or (more likely) an unfortunate former relationship of his own. Hell, maybe he's looking at his own musical history (I don't know how things ended with him and the rest of SA, it might have been perfectly amicable, I have no idea). It's entirely possible that he was watching a film or reading a book containing a bad breakup and went "Hey, you could write a good song out of this!" - not everything is necessarily drawn from real life events.

I think that's sort of what irks me about people who seem to decide that any track with slightly negative lyrics MUST be a diss track aimed at Nightwish. OK, there are a couple of tracks in Nightwish and Tarja's respective discographies that contain some pretty obvious barbs referring to each other and the situation around the split. But these are all adults with plenty of life experience - just off the top of my head, I seem to recall from interviews that both Tarja and Anette were bullied at school, that Anette's first marriage broke down - I'm sure most if not all of them have bad relationships in their past - not to mention some of the abuse Anette took from fans after she joined Nightwish in the first place. There are other events in their life that have happened and other people they will dislike that have nothing to do with Nightwish generally, or the band members directly. I get why people do it, to an extent - it's the negative events that WE are the most privy to - and like I say, I get labelling BBB, MPG, Diva etc. as diss tracks - but when people start talking about how "Yours Is An Empty Hope" or "Dark Star" or, in this case "Dead to Me" must be about Anette or must be about Nightwish, I find it a bit odd. And it does seem to be a Nightwish thing - "My Sweet Mystery" contains the line "Bring me back Days of Grays, take me back where I belong" (or something along those lines), but no-one's assuming that Jani is begging to be let back into Sonata Arctica as a result.

On 01/12/2017 at 0:43 AM, Ahasverus said:

Even if it's not an intended dissertation track, Anette sings it as one, and so fans intepret it. There is no such a thing as "songs Canon". 

I mean, it's clearly intended as an angry, negative song, whether the source is based on actual events/ people in Jani or Anette's past or whether it's a total work of fiction. Anette singing it as such is just good interpretation, it would sound a bit odd if she sang it like it was a mournful love ballad. And I agree with you in a sense that there is no such thing as "songs canon" - I mean, when I'm listening to an angry song like "Dead to Me", or "Yours Is An Empty Hope", or Alestorm's latest single (can we post swearwords if they're in the title of a song?) whatever, there are certain people from my past that spring to mind, and I can tell you that it's not Jani's ex or Tuomas's internet haters, or whatever... often songs with strong emotions such as anger, love etc. can be somewhat universal, and something a lot of people can relate to. But that doesn't mean that Jani and Tuomas and Chris are actually writing these songs about my former boss, you know? Similarly, someone going "Hey, this could be a Nightwish diss track" doesn't make it so. The initial discussion wasn't about whether it might be interpreted as a diss song (because past evidence tells us that of course it will be) the initial discussion was about whether it was one, or whether it was intended to be one.

TL,DR: It's possible that Jani took inspiration from Anette being fired from Nightwish when he wrote "Dead to Me", in that songwriters take inspiration from all over the place, but I don't think it's especially likely. It's possible (and slightly more likely) that Anette may relate some of the lyrics to what happened with Nightwish and channel some anger towards the band into her singing accordingly... but it's also possible that she's channeling some other negative event from her past, or even that she's just acting the appropriate part for the song. I think people are too ready to label any negative song as a diss track when it comes from people in or associated with Nightwish, though I think the band and associated parties bear some share of the blame for this given their past releases.

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20 hours ago, Symphoniker said:

Pay her for what? sing? They already have a better singer.

I agree wholeheartedly, those male vocals in The Carpenter really are the high water mar-oh sorry.

 

16 hours ago, Himiko said:

[...]

I also agree with almost every syllable.

But allow me, if I may:

16 hours ago, Himiko said:

often songs with strong emotions such as anger, love etc. can be somewhat universal, and something a lot of people can relate to. But that doesn't mean that Jani and Tuomas and Chris are actually writing these songs about my former boss, you know?


This is why in my opinion Yours Is An Empty Hope is a better track than Blahblahtuomashasdied.

You can paint the face of your arch-nemesis in and play a lot of air guitar to it.

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On 12/2/2017 at 3:02 PM, OneOfTheLostOnes said:

It might be interesting to add that I saw an interview in Dutch magazine 'Aardschok' with Anette. She states that it is hard to answer the question what she thinks of Nightwish anno 2017, but that she thinks Floor is a very good singer and she wishes them all the best for the future.

Sorry, but that is simply fake news. 

"I wish I could say I wish you the best

It isn't true

Won't forgive, won't forget". 

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16 minutes ago, Baki said:

Sorry, but that is simply fake news. 

"I wish I could say I wish you the best

It isn't true

Won't forgive, won't forget". 

I am so naive!

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On 12/3/2017 at 4:02 PM, Cristermo said:

But I'm afraid this has more to do with the paranoia of the fans than with reality itself.

But it raises the question why is this so much the case with Nightwish fandom and not so much so with many other bands? Live by the sword, die by the sword. Live by the drama, die by the drama. What it all comes back to is that Nightwish and everyone remotely attached to them has been tainted by the manufactured drama they created. And their fanbase has come to expect and look for drama in everything even remotely associated with them. This is a simple case of the chickens coming home to roost for the decision of the band to play the drama card in October 2005. It's hard to take seriously a band that enacts such a huge drama play to promote and sell their next album and an action like that selects out and alienates fans who hate and despise drama, but panders to those who love it and feed upon it. As a result, you get a fan base who seeks out drama in every thing they can. In short "ye reap what ye sow" or actions have consequences. Unfortunately the consequences sometimes extent to and taint those who weren't even a party to those original actions and also affect those who had no say in the matter. As a result Anette and Tarja are tainted by these actions as well and now fans examine every song they sing under a microscope as well looking for drama. One can argue that Anette knew or should have known she would be getting into this when she joined Nightwish after their dark drama play, but I suppose she didn't see this because she was blinded by what she thought would be a great opportunity. Maybe she also believed the bands fairy tale stories of the evil diva out to destroy them, who knows. But like a highly contagious incurable disease  that's spread through causal contact, this kind of drama has a way of tainting everyone who comes in contact. Remember that saying back when HIV was first discovered to be the cause of AIDS? That when you have sex with someone, it's like having sex with everyone they've ever had sex with? Well, that's kind of the way it is with this as well. Even though Jani never "had sex" with Nightwish and their Dark Drama Play, he's now tainted as well and the songs he's written here are now being examined under that same microscope by the Drama hungry Nightwish fan base who just can't get enough of the diet of raw drama that Tuomas has feed them for years now.

I think this is why Tarja has tried to distance herself from them for all these years. Unfortunately, even that is seen as more drama by the drama hungry fan base, as they see this and label it as her "holding a grudge" against them because of her distancing herself. So, it's a no win situation for the former vocalist of this band. If they speak of their former band, it's interpreted as drama. if they don't, it's interpreted as them "holding a grudge" and also seen as drama. 

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It was Anette who did all the drama, losing respect from a lot of fans. Mine especially. The boys learned the lesson.

 

I'm gonna forget the aids thing. 

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2 minutes ago, Heaven said:

It was Anette who did all the drama

You mean Anette wrote the Open letter to Tarja and planned her surprise dismissal in the final show of the Once tour eight months in advance, filmed that show and released it on DVD as "End of an Era", hired a PR writer to write a trashy drama filled tell all book, and wrote an entire album. Dark drama play about it with the songs Bye Bye beautiful and Master Passion Greed? Really? I never dreamed Anette was so brilliantly talented to craft a drama play like that and to be able to pull it off even before she was selected to join the band? If that's the case, then no only is Anette a brilliant master mind at crafting drama, but she must also be psychic, as she would have to have  foreseen the future and know she would be picked as Tarja's replacement. Obviously, I'm being sarcastic here. I must point it out because some around here take things quite literally. However, the point is that Nightwish was heavily embroiled in drama before Anette became a member. Did Anette add to the drama? Perhaps, but if so she was just being a good nightwisher and following the guys lead.

 

12 minutes ago, Heaven said:

I'm gonna forget the aids thing. 

it's an analogy, and it's obviously true otherwise why would Nightwish fans be speculating that Jani. who had nothing to do with any of this, is now writing songs dedicated to them? The ilk spreads to all who come in contact with it, even remotely!

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Stefan has not heard of the concept of TL;DR apparently. I can truly only skim all those stream of consciousness walls o’ text.  Otherwise, I fear I may go insane. 

And comparing NW drama to something so serious as the AIDS epidemic...wow. It may be only a “metaphor” but it’s also a false equivalency of the highest order that’s frankly insulting to those affected by the disease (whether it was intended that way or not). There are doubtless hundreds of more apt comparisons to get the point across. 

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2 hours ago, 18thAngel said:

It may be only a “metaphor” but it’s also a false equivalency of the highest order that’s frankly insulting to those affected by the disease

It's not a metaphor. It's an analogy. There's a difference. Learning that difference is up to you. It's also not a "false equivalency" because it's not an 'equivalency" at all.  Neither an analogy nor a metaphor is an "equivalency". And it's "insulting" to no one except those fans I spoke of that love to create drama where none exist because being "insulted" is dramatic. Anyway, I think you've just proven my point that Nightwish has narrowed their fan base to include a higher percentage of fans who just love drama and will look for it anywhere they can.

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You  are correct, it was an analogy. My mistake. 

Everything else stands though. The people I felt would be insulted were not Nightwish fans, but those affected by HIV/AIDS, as I stated. Nightwish drama is a minuscule concern compared to that, which is why I felt the comparison was in poor taste. I will not try to engage with you further.

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6 hours ago, Stefan2k4 said:

You mean Anette wrote the Open letter to Tarja and planned her surprise dismissal in the final show of the Once tour eight months in advance, filmed that show and released it on DVD as "End of an Era", hired a PR writer to write a trashy drama filled tell all book, and wrote an entire album. Dark drama play about it with the songs Bye Bye beautiful and Master Passion Greed? Really? I never dreamed Anette was so brilliantly talented to craft a drama play like that and to be able to pull it off even before she was selected to join the band? If that's the case, then no only is Anette a brilliant master mind at crafting drama, but she must also be psychic, as she would have to have  foreseen the future and know she would be picked as Tarja's replacement. Obviously, I'm being sarcastic here. I must point it out because some around here take things quite literally. However, the point is that Nightwish was heavily embroiled in drama before Anette became a member. Did Anette add to the drama? Perhaps, but if so she was just being a good nightwisher and following the guys lead.

 

Oh, come on, for Tarja's sake, come off your high Tarja-defending chair, and admit that the band tried its best to fire Anette silently, while she was the one who stirred all the drama. The band apparently learnt from their mistake with Tarja. Yes, mistake, yes, they screwed up back than, can you please not drag your moralising walls of texts about Tarja and the open letter and tuomas written without capital t in every topic. Or I should be reading how gorgeous of a person Tarja turned out to be and what an alcoholic marco or tuomas are also while checking the weather forecast for today?!

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1 hour ago, Baki said:

admit that the band tried its best to fire Anette silently, while she was the one who stirred all the drama.

@18thAngelI've never insulted anyone with HIV and I stand firmly behind that. The point is drama has a way of taking on a life of it's own and spreading to all it touches and this is evident by the comments we see in this very thread with regard to Anette's new album and the songs on it.

 

@Baki

Quote

come off your high Tarja-defending chair, and admit that the band tried its best to fire Anette silently, while she was the one who stirred all the drama.

Where in this thread do I "defend" Tarja and what do I defend her from? And where do I say Anette did not stir the drama. That's completely missing the point. The point is once you launch a huge drama campaign against your vocalist and throw her under the bus to sell your next album built on that drama, there's no turning back and undoing it. From then on your image is tainted by that drama and many fans will never take you seriously again. It destroys your credibility. Furthermore, it makes your future vocalist insecure as they can't help but wonder, if perhaps you'll do the same to them. Was it irrational for Anette to be insecure about her position in the band knowing what they did to their previous vocalist? Anette isn't stupid. She probably suspected they would use drama against her the same way they did against her predecessor, therefore she would beat them to the punch and use it first against them. That may not be taking the moral high road but seeing how well it worked against Tarja and how so many fans swallowed it all hook, line, and sinker can you really blame her? If what you say is true, it only means Anette is guilty of doing exactly what the guys did with Tarja, allowing her own insecurity to motivate herself to selfishly exploit drama. How can you defend the guys and condemn Anette for doing pretty much the same only in reverse?

1 hour ago, Baki said:

Or I should be reading how gorgeous of a person Tarja turned out to be and what an alcoholic marco or tuomas are

Marco called himself an alcoholic in his new book before I ever mentioned it and when I did so, I applauded his admission of his problem and the fact he is working to conquer it. You apparently didn't know of this and attacked me for it. Anyway, I sincerely applaud Marco for taking that step and I truly believe this is what Tarja was referring to when she said he was a changed person. Again, i genuinely applaud him on this. As for Tuomas, I don't think  I've ever specifically called him out in this forum as being an alcoholic, but I think it's pretty common knowledge that Marco wasn't the only one of the guys over indulging and the End of Innocence DVD speaks for itself. As for Tarja, I think her life, family, and solo career speaks for itself. If it contradicts the allegations her former band made against her is that my fault or even her fault? Or could it be the fault of those who perhaps lied to us all along? You see, Baki, in the long run the truth has a way of revealing itself. It reveals itself through actions and patterns of behavior, because those things will always reveal a persons true nature, unlike their words.

And I likewise don't believe that Anette is the great evil person she was portrayed as being by the same group of people who lied to us about Tarja. Things don't happen in a vacuum. One chain of events leads to and sets the circumstances for others that follow. Anette came into this band in a difficult situation, a situation that was made much worse by the way the band treated it's prior vocalist. And in their own insecurity, the band chose a replacement who was very different from Tarja, had little experience being in a band as popular as Nightwish was at that time, and didn't have the love and support of the fans. All of this combined with the history of what happened with Tarja was a huge recipe for disaster. But again the guys great insecurity blinded them to this. So, what happened with Anette is at least as much their fault as it was hers, and maybe more so.

 

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Sorry, but the fact that guys proved to be assholes with Tarja does not justify the fact that Anette was an asshole with them 7 years down the road. To use your grand analogies, because Germans were being victims of nationalist state policies in East Central Europe in the interwar period, does not mean that Hitler's conquest of this region and the subsequent genocides were justified, and that you can pin the interwar Polish or Czechoslovak governments to be responsible for Holocaust. So, yeah, Tuomas might have started the drama cycle, but it was entirely up to Anette to remain silent about it in 2013, not to anybody else.

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1 hour ago, Baki said:

Sorry, but the fact that guys proved to be assholes with Tarja does not justify the fact that Anette was an asshole with them 7 years down the road.

I never said Anette was justified in anything. But what specifically are we condemning Anette for here? Having a liver cyst in Denver? Getting Pregnant? Fearing the guys would do the same to her that they did to Tarja? Fearing that Floor was not really intended to be only a "temporary" replace as these "honest" men, who were so "honest" with the prior vocalist that they lied to her face for 8 months while plotting her dismissal, were telling her? Why of course Anette should have trusted these "honest" men who lied to the face of a friend they knew since childhood for those 8 months, because why would these "honest" men lie to her when they said Floor was only a "temporary' replacement? :rolleyes: Or are we condemning her because she spoke out and told the truth, that she was fired, when the band wanted to mislead fans into thinking she quit or at least agreed to leave? Which of course was another lie by these "honest" men who were asking Anette to agree to this so called "temporary" replacement by Floor which very Ironically turned out to NOT be temporary at all as these "honest"men had said.

 

1 hour ago, Baki said:

Tuomas might have started the drama cycle, but it was entirely up to Anette to remain silent about it in 2013, not to anybody else.

Is it a question of remaining silent or is it a question of honesty? Tarja may not have been a saint, but I think clearly the bands portrayal of her is grossly distorted and  slanted to suit their need to justify their own actions. Whatever, she may or may not have done, I believe she was honest with them. She told them in Dec 2004, she wished to leave after one more tour and album. Why would she do this if not to be honest? If she were the Greedy Selfish Diva, why would she tell them this? What did she gain beside enabling them to betray her in the way they ultimately did? The bands story cannot be an accurate depiction of reality because it doesn't fit with the things we know to be true. The drama comes from the lies and misrepresentation of the facts.

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7 hours ago, Stefan2k4 said:

It's not a metaphor. It's an analogy. There's a difference. Learning that difference is up to you. It's also not a "false equivalency" because it's not an 'equivalency" at all.  Neither an analogy nor a metaphor is an "equivalency".

I teach a class in high school and by God, if I had a student like you I would bring a cane to school, and possibly dogs.
 

2 hours ago, Baki said:

To use your grand analogies, because Germans were being victims of nationalist state policies in East Central Europe in the interwar period, does not mean that Hitler's conquest of this region and the subsequent genocides were justified, and that you can pin the interwar Polish or Czechoslovak governments to be responsible for Holocaust.

BAM, Godwined in 90 pages.
Well played, Anette thread.

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17 hours ago, Stefan2k4 said:

But it raises the question why is this so much the case with Nightwish fandom and not so much so with many other bands? Live by the sword, die by the sword. Live by the drama, die by the drama. What it all comes back to is that Nightwish and everyone remotely attached to them has been tainted by the manufactured drama they created. And their fanbase has come to expect and look for drama in everything even remotely associated with them. This is a simple case of the chickens coming home to roost for the decision of the band to play the drama card in October 2005. It's hard to take seriously a band that enacts such a huge drama play to promote and sell their next album and an action like that selects out and alienates fans who hate and despise drama, but panders to those who love it and feed upon it. As a result, you get a fan base who seeks out drama in every thing they can. In short "ye reap what ye sow" or actions have consequences. Unfortunately the consequences sometimes extent to and taint those who weren't even a party to those original actions and also affect those who had no say in the matter. As a result Anette and Tarja are tainted by these actions as well and now fans examine every song they sing under a microscope as well looking for drama. One can argue that Anette knew or should have known she would be getting into this when she joined Nightwish after their dark drama play, but I suppose she didn't see this because she was blinded by what she thought would be a great opportunity. Maybe she also believed the bands fairy tale stories of the evil diva out to destroy them, who knows. But like a highly contagious incurable disease  that's spread through causal contact, this kind of drama has a way of tainting everyone who comes in contact. Remember that saying back when HIV was first discovered to be the cause of AIDS? That when you have sex with someone, it's like having sex with everyone they've ever had sex with? Well, that's kind of the way it is with this as well. Even though Jani never "had sex" with Nightwish and their Dark Drama Play, he's now tainted as well and the songs he's written here are now being examined under that same microscope by the Drama hungry Nightwish fan base who just can't get enough of the diet of raw drama that Tuomas has feed them for years now.

I think this is why Tarja has tried to distance herself from them for all these years. Unfortunately, even that is seen as more drama by the drama hungry fan base, as they see this and label it as her "holding a grudge" against them because of her distancing herself. So, it's a no win situation for the former vocalist of this band. If they speak of their former band, it's interpreted as drama. if they don't, it's interpreted as them "holding a grudge" and also seen as drama. 

For Heaven's sake! You should attach a box of aspirins to every post you write. It's a public health issue. When I mentioned the paranoia of the fans I was referring to people like you not to the average fan, who has nothing to do with the caricature you have created in your mind. The drama is inside you.

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10 hours ago, Stefan2k4 said:

 But what specifically are we condemning Anette for here? 

 

We are just condemning her here for making ridiculous comparison of herself with Britney and Rihanna, then keeping silent for a year, and then curiously starting her badmouthing campaign, curiously enough, just around the release of her solo album. And for implicitly justifying Floor hate groups on social media. And for being hypocritical about online bullying in her blog posts. And for being aggressive to mildest kind of criticism towards her, even by her own fans. And, to touch your sensitive topic, dragging Tarja dismissal into the whole story and drawing false parallels between herself and Tarja, when in fact, ironically enough, she should have drawn parallels between herself and tuomas' open letter. 

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Its been like half a decade and while Anette is riding the money train with her new comeback album and enjoying a career as a nurse you all prefer to ride the salt carousel and discuss this same thing for the 100000th time :rolleyes: I would love if she makes another Rhianna/Britney comparison  just to rile people here up again.

Edit: I thought I've seen it all, but I bothered to scroll up more and see World War II being thrown in now. Y'all wild.

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13 hours ago, River Wild said:

Its been like half a decade and while Anette is riding the money train with her new comeback album and enjoying a career as a nurse you all prefer to ride the salt carousel and discuss this same thing for the 100000th time :rolleyes: I would love if she makes another Rhianna/Britney comparison  just to rile people here up again.

Edit: I thought I've seen it all, but I bothered to scroll up more and see World War II being thrown in now. Y'all wild.

I completely agree with your post, though I can't believe people say that NW tried their best to fire her silently... C'mon! That's even worse in my opinion! I'm not saying she's completely innocent (nor Tarja nor Sami nor NW) and I know you might not like her as a person but that doesn't mean NW had the right to fire her like that or that she should have remained silent!

18 hours ago, Baki said:

making ridiculous comparison of herself with Britney and Rihanna

I have nothing against you, and I think you are one of the nicest forum members, but I bet anybody in that situation would act irrationally! If Floor said that, would you all blame her as well?

I would gladly continue defending her but I know my opinions are really unpopular and I think the thread should be used for talking about her new album (which in my opinion is amazing, and the album of the year for me).

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1 minute ago, WhiteLagoon said:

 

I have nothing against you, and I think you are one of the nicest forum members, but I bet anybody in that situation would act irrationally! If Floor said that, would you all blame her as well?

 

Floor would never say that, for once. You can defend Anette however you want, but truth is , she is also to blame.

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1 hour ago, WhiteLagoon said:

I completely agree with your post, though I can't believe people say that NW tried their best to fire her silently... C'mon! That's even worse in my opinion! I'm not saying she's completely innocent (nor Tarja nor Sami nor NW) and I know you might not like her as a person but that doesn't mean NW had the right to fire her like that or that she should have remained silent!

I

By the way...how many times do I have to repeat..SHE WASN'T FIRED!!! Both sides decided it was the best to terminate their relationship (as much as Anette might said one year later, because she decided to play the victim).

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