mojo

Nightwish & Anette Media

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She said she proposed a substitute herself, so why would bringing a substitute be a drastic decision if Anette herself originally thought of it? 

 

You're right! but I can only imagine that there is a difference wether your substitue is singer XY or the no.1 candidate on many people's wishlist for the new NW vocalist in 2007 aka Floor Jansen. This was probably the worst case scenario for Anette and you just have to check all those videos from the tour with Floor to understand why. Whatever... as Jukka said in the documentary: everything happens for a reason ;)

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I think your are over-analyzing the timeline when Anette was fired, whether she was fired via email, or during the fight in the bus, whether she's contradicting herself... Anyway, I think I can recall they mentioned she had a separate bus for herself, which could explain why would the email was needed. When those discussions happened, and how, only they know. 

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I have to say that after seeing the documentary, the guys were really torn apart by the fact that they parted ways with Anette, I see no premeditation in how things took their natural flow. And let's not forget the show must go on.

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Here's as repeat some quotation from the first interview of this thread. There Anette talked to Carl Begai about the substitute issue.

 

"We had some discussions during the tour in America about how to cover the remaining gigs for the tours that were coming up, and we did have something of an argument before that. I didn’t want to have a substitute singer in the band, I wanted to do the South American shows. I would have been too pregnant to go to Australia so I wanted to push the dates back, but Tuomas (Holopainen / keyboards, founder) didn’t want that.

Discussions about a substitute came up and at first I was like ‘Yeah, well…. okay…’ but when they mentioned Floor it was an automatic ‘No’ from me. I didn’t think it was a good idea because I knew what would happen; I knew the fans would love Floor because she’s a metal singer and I’m a pop singer, and I wanted to keep my job. Because I couldn’t do the Australian tour, I think that’s when they started thinking about a new singer. We had a bit of an argument, then I got ill, and after that…. I don’t know if they planned this.
- - -
Of course I knew we had our gigs to do, and I was pregnant so it was my own fault, but it was only one small tour that I wanted to push back. I could have done all the other gigs and I didn’t understand why they needed a substitute singer when I wanted to go."

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Did they fire her? On a technical level, yes. They terminated her contract. But I think it's pretty obvious that hiring Floor as Anette's temporary replacement is what truly sealed the deal. This decision was truly in the best interest of both the band and its fans, but Anette could not accept it because she was worried about being overshadowed. Even for just one small leg of the tour! If she had set her ego aside and simply rolled with it, she would have been in the studio this summer recording vocals for the next Nightwish album. There's really no doubt about that. I mean, at some point the outcome must have been obvious to everyone, before the technical details were arranged. Anette not being able to accept a decision taken by the rest of the band would definitely result in a conflict that could not be resolved unless she was willing to change her mind. And she clearly wasn't so ultimately she had to go.

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I'm sorry but from what I've gathered (including Troy's comments), the guys had issues with her for a long time. To be honest, she is not the most trustworthy person to have in a band with such demands. Many people had complaints about her behavior, plus she made nasty comments more than once about metal fans and she emphasized on every occasion how much she did not belong in this genre. She even says herself that she is a pop singer.

 

No, what happened was just the final drop. If everything was ok, things would not have gone to hell after such a thing.

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@AngelHeart: Yeah, but Anette was very much against Floor being the substitute and even against the band getting any substitute, which the guys knew very well. I think it can be called a rather drastic decision to bring in Floor just like that, without bothering to discuss it through with Anette, without bothering to convince her that it was for the best, just dumping her opinions out of the window as if they're not even worth discussing. Mind you, I'm not saying that the guys shouldn't have got a substitute. Quite the contrary, and as you say, that's the normal way in any other job. And by the time they made their decision they were probably just so tired of the whole mess that they wanted to get things settled as quickly as possible.

But the thing is... no matter how much you may go on about how it's normal to get a substitute for a pregnant woman, it still isn't normal in the music business, and especially not for singers. Although I think it's probably getting more common, it's still very rare to see any band perform, let alone do longer tours, with a substitute singer. Remember Within Temptation cancelling their world tour when Sharon got pregnant, for example. They could have hired a substitute had they so wished. Hell, even Revamp could have done their gigs with someone else when Floor was ill. I'm not saying either of the bands should have done so, but it was certainly an option, which both of them decided not to take.

So from this perspective I don't think the journalist calling it a drastic decision was so weird. Plus, journalists in general tend to blow things out of proportion. Just sayin'. :P

 

Also, I think this discussion is derailing a bit... :ph34r:

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But, there's a HUGE difference in those examples you mentioned, Sharon is not only the singer of WT but one of the minds behind the band, as well Floor in ReVamp. Anette was just the singer in NW, so it's easier to replace her comparing her with Sharon or Floor in their own bands.

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^that's true sahara! but I think they would have never brought in a substitute for Tarja in the middle of a tour while she was still in the band even if she was just the singer and nothing more. At least I can't see it. But would have been fun to see the fan reactions ;)

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^You're right BUT let's not forget Tarja was the image of the band in that moment, she had a big role even if she was just the singer, in some way NW made her name so big to all of us. We have to face after Tarja/Nightwish's split, things changed a lot concerning the vocalists, the guys pointed out (before Anette joined the band) that any member could be replaced.

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well the only irreplacabel bandmember is Tuomas I would say for obvious reasons, but everyone else could be replaced, yes. But I don't even want to think about it ;) the current lineup seems to be perfect!

Edit: oh sorry, you we're talking about the live lineup, right? yes of course, they could change everyone but without Holopainen it would be kinda "meh" for me ;)

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Honestly, I wouldn't care so much if e.g. Tuomas decided to or would be prevented for any possible reason to tour with NW. I mean, he never wrote music while on tour anyway, so that wouldn't affect much his songwriting routine, and if they would find a decently skilled (or even more skilled) keyboard player to fill in on tour, why not? For example, I have no problem with how Christian Kretschmar plays Tuomas's parts on Tarja's concerts. On the other hand, I do have a problem with how Tarja sings her own NW songs on her concerts. :P

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Did they fire her? On a technical level, yes. They terminated her contract. But I think it's pretty obvious that hiring Floor as Anette's temporary replacement is what truly sealed the deal. This decision was truly in the best interest of both the band and its fans, but Anette could not accept it because she was worried about being overshadowed. Even for just one small leg of the tour! If she had set her ego aside and simply rolled with it, she would have been in the studio this summer recording vocals for the next Nightwish album. There's really no doubt about that. I mean, at some point the outcome must have been obvious to everyone, before the technical details were arranged. Anette not being able to accept a decision taken by the rest of the band would definitely result in a conflict that could not be resolved unless she was willing to change her mind. And she clearly wasn't so ultimately she had to go.

You always seem to be able to put my thoughts into words! :)

 

As Tuomas said in  the documentary, each and everyone of them is replaceable, at least for a short period of time. Meaning, shows will not be cancelled if one of them falls ill, they seem to be very adamant about that.

And one more time - I really wish Anette's reaction would have been different now, after such a long time. Crap happens, you learn from it and move on. Over all, at the time of her departure she was in a great position, she already had two beautiful healthy children, third one on the way, a loving boyfriend by her side and the support of her family. Not bad at all.

As she has said herself, she didn't quite know where she was getting herself into, so at least part of the blame falls on her.

I know I'm being repetitive, but I honestly believe she would have benefited from a a more positive and constructive attitude.

 

EDIT: Sorry, did not realize that word is a swear word, won't happen again!

Swearing removed. Please remember that this is the no swearing part of the forum. -HooPee-

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it's still very rare to see any band perform, let alone do longer tours, with a substitute singer. Remember Within Temptation cancelling their world tour when Sharon got pregnant, for example. They could have hired a substitute had they so wished. Hell, even Revamp could have done their gigs with someone else when Floor was ill.

It's not the same, Sharon and her husband run Within temptation and ReVamp is FLoor's baby. Replacing one of the two wouldn't have been replacing just the lead singer, it would've been replacing the mastermind behind the band (or one of the masterminds, in WT's case). Let's look at Epica, for example. Simone is much more involved in the band then Anette ever was and yet she was replaced with no fuss by Amanda when she was sick. Eluveitie didn't even bother to replace Anna when she was sick, they just toured without her.

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and if they would find a decently skilled (or even more skilled) keyboard player to fill in on tour, why not?

Because a great deal of fans come to see him. And the rest of the band, of course, but there are countless fangirls (and I suppose, fanboys :P ) that want to see him like crazy. I know that many people here get to see the band in every tour, sometimes more than once, so they don't crave to see them that much, but some of us get to see them once in 5 or more years(last show here was in 2008). And I believe that more people come to see Tuomas than Anette or Floor.

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Well, each to their own, I would be more then ready to go and see a NW show free of Tuomas fanboys/girls. :P

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@AngelHeart: Yeah, I know the situation is slightly different, but WT still had the same option. The rest of the band could have gone on without her, just not without her consent as she is such a key member of the band. I mean, Robert being one of the main composers and a key member of the band didn't stop him from staying at home. I am aware of Epica replacing Simone, but my point is that in reality cases like this are still quite rare in music industry, and many people seem to think that that's the way it should be. For example, when Nightwish had Elize and Alyssa replace Anette for that one show, several journalists here in Finland wrote how it just showed that the band cared nothing for their members and that it was weird that a band of this size would perform without their singer and so on. Now, as far as I'm concerned, that is utter crap. But when even people outside of music industry think like this... yeah, no wonder replacing a singer is rare. And this was just about one show, not an entire tour.

To me, with a background in classical music, it's obvious that you always try to find a replacement if possible. Of course, sometimes it isn't, and then you have to cancel. But it's evident that outside of classical music, there are loads of people who don't think that way.

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I think that yeah, they guys were aware of the possible consequences, that if they called in Floor, it might very probably not make Anette happy. I personally think they were tired of her attitude, and that this was a way for them to give her an ultimatum, and "test" in a way. Of how much she cared about the band, or weather she cared more about her position and status. A way of bringing the bad atmosphere to a point, like "We can't go on like this, something has to change". Maybe they were still open to having Anette in the band if she would change. I don't know.

 

You could call it sneaky, and not wanting to be the one to say you're fired without having a very good reason...

I just think that Anette ought to have realized that things weren't going well.

I mean, if the mail came as a bolt from clear skies to her, then... But isn't that what she's been saying, that she thinks they made a drastic decision? I just don't get it, she has to have understood it, and WHY would she want to be in the band when she herself felt so insecure and unhappy?  :dunno:  

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 For example, when Nightwish had Elize and Alyssa replace Anette for that one show, several journalists here in Finland wrote how it just showed that the band cared nothing for their members and that it was weird that a band of this size would perform without their singer and so on. Now, as far as I'm concerned, that is utter crap. But when even people outside of music industry think like this... yeah, no wonder replacing a singer is rare. And this was just about one show, not an entire tour.

 

Maybe I have some sort of selective memory, but I don't remember having read anything like that! I recall a very positive reception from more or less everybody but Anette. :o

 

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I certainly remember reading those kind of comments. And well, to be honest, not just from Finnish media, but from fans too. The majority of articles back then were very neutral of course, just stating what had happened. I didn't mean to imply that a big part of media thought that way.

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It's only because NW have a guilty past about replacing a singer, and because, while Anette's fans loved to emphasize how much Tarja was replaceable after all, they didn't like it when it came to Anette.

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I think that yeah, they guys were aware of the possible consequences, that if they called in Floor, it might very probably not make Anette happy. I personally think they were tired of her attitude, and that this was a way for them to give her an ultimatum, and "test" in a way. Of how much she cared about the band, or weather she cared more about her position and status

I have to disagree. They already knew Floor and what she was capable of. It was probably the safest choice they could possibly make without taking any big risks. It was in the best interest of both the band and its fans. It would have been downright unprofessional of them to ask someone else just so satisfy Anette's ego. If anything, I think she was the one who gave them an ultimatum - "cancel the plans with Floor if you care about me or I'm out". 

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I think that yeah, they guys were aware of the possible consequences, that if they called in Floor, it might very probably not make Anette happy. 

Call me naive, but i think that they were looking for someone capable to do the shows and who hadn't got other obligations at the moment. They knew Floor is capable to do the shows, also Elize. Maybe one Amanda Somerville also could do a good job. But around that time only Floor was free from touring.

Then what more reasonable solution than asking her to help, while Anette is on maternity leave?

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I think that yeah, they guys were aware of the possible consequences, that if they called in Floor, it might very probably not make Anette happy. I personally think they were tired of her attitude, and that this was a way for them to give her an ultimatum, and "test" in a way. Of how much she cared about the band, or weather she cared more about her position and status

I have to disagree. They already knew Floor and what she was capable of. It was probably the safest choice they could possibly make without taking any big risks. It was in the best interest of both the band and its fans. It would have been downright unprofessional of them to ask someone else just so satisfy Anette's ego. If anything, I think she was the one who gave them an ultimatum - "cancel the plans with Floor if you care about me or I'm out".

 

I think it was both. Yes, they thought of Floor because they know her and because they thought she'd do a good job. But when they arrived at that plan, and decided to call her despite not having Anette's total consent, they must have been aware of the possible consequences. And I personally do think that they were a bit relieved that this decision led to some kind of resolution to their problems with Anette. I don't mean that they were calling Floor just to provoke this response from Anette! But things needed to be solved. I think them calling ANY singer would have led to pretty much the same result. I mean, any realistic choice that the fans would accept, like you said, like Amanda Somerville etc. I just mean that people place a lot of blame on Anette for why it ended, but I think the guys didn't want to compromise and make excuses for her any more. So it was from both parts.

Don't know if I'm making any sense  :huh: am I making any sense? I got about 1 hour worth of sleep last night.

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I see what you mean. But I think that whether they had called Floor prior to telling Anette about it or if they did it after telling her they would is rather irrelevant. Anette's reaction would most likely have been the same.

 

Part of me would like to think that Anette would have been okay with Elize, but given her level of insecurity and shallowness I wouldn't put it past her to be jealous of her as well. After all, most people would probably consider them to be on the same level talent wise, but Elize is obviously younger and much more attractive. Anette made it very clear that she did not want any substitute singer. "Rihanna wouldn't ask Britney Spears to sing for her" :P

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