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Nightwish Off Topic

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14 hours ago, Serious Sam said:

But I did mean to suggest that he SHOULD BE a tyrant, and here's why: HE is the composing genius in the band. Maybe Floor writes more interesting lyrics, maybe Marco knows more about making it rock, whatever. But songs which are written by one composer tend to be more coherent musically. I mean, why do you think musicals and operas are pretty much always written by one guy, maybe another one  for the lyrics? Like, there's a reason that musicals are so coherent, and operas: They are written by one composer. The greatest composers in history wrote their stuff alone. You think Beethoven would have let someone else co-write his symphonies? Hell no.

Composing genius? :rofl: Yeah, he is the main songwriter but composing genius? Please, don't compare him to real composing geniuses like Beethoven... Tuomas' songs are pretty much basic rock songs with simple structures, riffs and melodies, drowned behind an orchestra arranged by Pip. Nothing special in them in that way. Tuomas' compositions have been very repetitive for a long time and I would sure like the others do more songwriting in the future. 

Let's take Epica as an example. All the five guys in the band compose songs and Mark and Simone write the lyrics. Their albums still sound pretty coherent if you ask me, but they don't lose creativity or start repeating themselves in the same way as all the guys just write a couple songs for an album. I would choose The Holographic Principle over Endless Forms Most Beautiful any time, no questions needed. 

3 hours ago, Baki said:

Nah, I'd still love Floor to come in with lyrics at least on a few songs, coherence or not. The dead-boy saga and life-is-beautiful saga tend to get old after certain number of albums. 

Yeah, and some could also say he's used certain melodies and riffs at least enough many times... :P But I understand, it's not easy to write more simple pop songs that sound inspired after already publishing like a hundred of them...

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If to be a composer is to read and write musical notation, then by his own admission Toumas is NOT a composer. He has stated he can not read music anylonger (could when a child studying it). He has stated many times he uses a keyboard connected to a computer to write all the parts for the band. Pip does the orchestrations based on the computer files Toumas sends him PIP WRITES the musical notation NOT TOUMAS.

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I have always had a lot of respect for the artists who use big orchestras but write the orchestrations themselves. I understand that it is not an easy thing and requires years and years of education and training, but i gained a lot more respect for artists like Chris from Therion or Alex from Rhapsody when I found out that they write the orchestrations. Do not get me wrong, Tuomas's songs and melodies are very good, but let's not kid ourselves, for many people the amazing orchestrations behind big projects like Dark Passion Play (I am mostly referring to TPATP here) and Imaginaerum and the chills from Ghost Love Score- these are things they attributed to Tuomas if they had not bothered to look into the small letters of the acknowledgements, and many people do not look so much into it.

I would actually like to hear a piano piece from Tuomas. LIke, a simple, no other instruments, piano piece.

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I don't care if he reads notes or not. If he makes good music, he can do it however he wants. 

I am really worried about the last statements from Tuomas that he cannot get inspired for making a new songs or album. I never heard him say that before, even in 2003. We all know Tarja was his muse, his inspiration. Than Anette came, so he was challenged to make it work. Now with Floor, he doesn't have the challenge and the need to show himself, Floor stole the show already. If he writes shit song, Floor will make it shine. 

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15 hours ago, Imaginarium said:

Composing genius? :rofl: Yeah, he is the main songwriter but composing genius? Please, don't compare him to real composing geniuses like Beethoven... Tuomas' songs are pretty much basic rock songs with simple structures, riffs and melodies, drowned behind an orchestra arranged by Pip. Nothing special in them in that way. Tuomas' compositions have been very repetitive for a long time and I would sure like the others do more songwriting in the future. 

Let's take Epica as an example. All the five guys in the band compose songs and Mark and Simone write the lyrics. Their albums still sound pretty coherent if you ask me, but they don't lose creativity or start repeating themselves in the same way as all the guys just write a couple songs for an album. I would choose The Holographic Principle over Endless Forms Most Beautiful any time, no questions needed. 

Yeah, and some could also say he's used certain melodies and riffs at least enough many times... :P But I understand, it's not easy to write more simple pop songs that sound inspired after already publishing like a hundred of them...

Hm, I kind of disagree. Structually you are correct, and this is something I have rambled on about myself, but I mean it more in how he combines metal and classical/folk element. That is pretty genius to me. More like combination of elements wise than "if you wrote this down as a score it would be awesome" wise. Of course I am in no way shape or form comparing Tuomas to Beethoven or Bach or Schubert. I mean Schubert wrote over 1500 works and died at age 32. Tuomas is how old and wrote how many songs now? And Schuberts' work was revolutionary, at least many of the songs. Schubert is arguably the greatest SONG writer ever, inarguably one of the greatest. I'm not putting Tuomas in the same category. 

It's like: Tuomas is musical IQ 120 genius. Like a minor genius. Genius minion? :P On that score, Beethoven and Schubert are like IQ 1000 geniuses, and Hans Zimmer is like an IQ 500 genius. It was my earlier point about metal and classical in another thread: For metal, Tuomas is a genius. For classical he would be mediocre. But in metal I think there is no debate that Tuomas is one of the best songwriters we have. 

Beethoven actually to me, not to nitpick, was more of a composer than songwriter, although he wrote songs too. If you want to pick an example for songwriter from the classical era, I think Schubert is more comparable to todays' songwriters because he wrote over 600 songs.

15 hours ago, jaicne said:

If to be a composer is to read and write musical notation, then by his own admission Toumas is NOT a composer. He has stated he can not read music anylonger (could when a child studying it). He has stated many times he uses a keyboard connected to a computer to write all the parts for the band. Pip does the orchestrations based on the computer files Toumas sends him PIP WRITES the musical notation NOT TOUMAS.

He...what? Thanks for the info, I didn't know that. But, come on, that is ridiculous. Has Tuomas ever been diagnosed with some weird mental condition? I mean he STUDIED music, did he not? Can not read music anylonger as in he once could and now...? Jesus Christ. I thought Pip just did the orchestrations based on Tuomas' score. This shocks me a little to be honest.

 

4 hours ago, GreatEye said:

I don't care if he reads notes or not. If he makes good music, he can do it however he wants. 

I am really worried about the last statements from Tuomas that he cannot get inspired for making a new songs or album. I never heard him say that before, even in 2003. We all know Tarja was his muse, his inspiration. Than Anette came, so he was challenged to make it work. Now with Floor, he doesn't have the challenge and the need to show himself, Floor stole the show already. If he writes shit song, Floor will make it shine. 

Too comfortable. He's getting too comfortable with his life. If you look at Nightwishs' catalogue, Tuomas longing for things is what drove his songwriting. Nothing left to long for. Just that simple. Some people need to feel like shit to be able to write songs. 

@DownHillThe hardest part about it is to know what you can write for what instrument. It's not so much just writing notes for a violin, that's not hard. It's knowing what parts to give to the violin to make it sound a certain way that is hard. I once co-wrote songs for a student musical with my former high school music teacher. I gave her a song, melody, lyrics and basic chords. And she sents me back a song with complicated accompaniement that makes it sound exactly like a medieval song. I was like "holy...!" back then. But that's what you say: Her musical education. Education is an underrated element in metal songwriting I think. Many metal songwriters don't educate themselves about music. Either because they don't want to because their style works for them, or because they can't be bothered to. The latter comes back to the professionalism thing....

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On 28.5.2017 at 2:30 PM, Imaginarium said:

Composing genius? :rofl: Yeah, he is the main songwriter but composing genius? Please, don't compare him to real composing geniuses like Beethoven...

He said "composing genius of the band". As far as I know, there's no Beethoven in Nightwish.:P

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@Serious Sam : Yeah I know, because technically you can  give the same note sheet to everybody in an orchestra, but it will sound like a total mess. And it is not only about which instruments to choose, but also the key they should play for the music to sound good, their volume too (I mean, imagine making a mistake an asking the tuba player to go ffff  in the middle of Sahara :P ).

But even though I respect so much the artists who do that, that does not mean that I do not respect the artists who do not. I understand that not everybody had the time or even resources (music schools can be extremely expensive, and many artists are self-taught) when they were younger, and they certainly might not have the time now.

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I don't know why every time someone calls somebody a genius there is another someone mentioning Beethoven, Schubert or Mozart to underrate the first somebody. And probably (usually) that someone who mentions Beethoven has no idea about who he was and the music he composed. The power of myth, you know. Music is music, not a competition among egos. Holopainen is not trying to be Beethoven. Beethoven is Beethoven and Holopainen is Holopainen. A turkey is a turkey and a goose is a goose and I don't see any reason to think a turkey is better than a goose or viceversa. Ah, by the way, everybody is entitled to have his/her own opinion and  mine is that Endless Forms Most Beautiful is far better than The Holographic Principle. No bad vibes, just a humble opinion.:friends:

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On 5/28/2017 at 7:05 AM, Nienor said:

Let's again agree to disagree... Mainly on the part you typed some posts ago for not letting Emppu to write. Sorry, Sam but if the guy has ideas for songs, structures, solos, riffs, whaever it is better to naturally  include them rather repeating and patching again the same melodies and drown them with orchestra.

And the way this to happen is simply writing together, sharing ideas before the song structure or main theme is claryfied by Tuomas. Otherwise it sounds forced or artificial.

As for findning what parts/songs Marco has written in the later albums it is easy - they don't have the usual dark melancholic athmosphere Tuomas creates.

Which, by the way, is great but after listening it in almost every song he's written since 2004 is getting tiring and predictable.

Everything this guy said.

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I would really love for just ONE more album to do fantasy themes again, i'm sure Tuomas never stopped reading and interacting with that sort of stuff. Bring back that magic, dark mystery, and fun of old. Of course I don't think it should be the entire album, it think there could be room for some songs that are completely stand-alone peppered here and there like Oceanborn. 

This opinion is perhaps unpopular, but I think that if Floor won't be writing in Nightwish, it would at least be fun to hear her sing fantasy themed songs. Her cover of the opening theme for Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles was powerful. She made a fantasy song in the first After Forever, Inimical Chimera, which was a really brutal fantasy song.

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On 14/6/2017 at 4:28 PM, Spirit of Whiterun said:

This opinion is perhaps unpopular, but I think that if Floor won't be writing in Nightwish, it would at least be fun to hear her sing fantasy themed songs. Her cover of the opening theme for Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles was powerful. She made a fantasy song in the first After Forever, Inimical Chimera, which was a really brutal fantasy song.

It'd be great if she could include her classical technique in THAT way. Perhaps we'll be able to hear Floor giving her take on the old NW fantasy songs in Decades.

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Well, this may sound unpopular too, but I don't want Floor to write songs for Nightwish. I love her as singer and that's just what I want from her. If she wants to write songs she can make a solo album (as Tuomas has already made), but, as far as composing and writing is concerned, I prefer Tuomas's skills. I would like more input from Empu though. I want new guitar riffs and Empu is the one here.

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I too am a staunch voice in that what Floor makes should be hers alone and what Tuomas makes is everything that Nightwish is. They have two very different ways for writing and I would rather Floor do what she does and that is 100% the best she can do and I don't think Nightwish is like early After Forever in that respect.

As for Tuomas, Nightwish is his vision as it always has been, lyrics writing aside from his would muddle it up. Floor writing for the band could create a scism in the fanbase in those critical in the vocal line process. It would be best to have them both do what they do best in their own worlds.

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Marco's lackluster contribution to lyrics made my stance of locking the writing privileges to Tuomas even more strict. The difference in both style and spirit was staggering.

Floor's contribution with ideas and vocal interpretation is more than enough.

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I think that the band needs fresh ideas. EFMB lacked that and I think Floor could contribute with a new perspective. It would revive the band's sound. She could work together with Tuomas to keep core of the Nightwish sound. 

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I absolutely love Floor's lyrics in both of her previous bands. The way she expressed her reflections on her burnout in Wild Card is terrific imo and it's still one of my favorites albums ever. Her contributions with After Forever on religion, political and social issues, even fantasy themes are great as well. I do feel that if she would contribute with lyrics for NW it would change the band lyrical image which would always has been sort of "Tuomas diary" in his own words. Frankly I'm always very open to a new approach but it's fine with me as well if he is the one writing all the lyrics for the band.
However, I do think that she can contribute with vocal melodies. It could give the band a fresh sound, specially because she has a lot experience in doing that and she would know what makes her voice shine a little more. Of course there are techniques she can use that don't necessarily require her to write the melodies herself too. But I'm not sure if she even wants that at the moment, she has expressed in interviews that she's comfortable in just signing and interpreting the songs in her own way, so who knows how the next album will sound.
I do feel that all members contribute while arranging the music, perhaps they follow Tuomas vision in the end, but aside from a few riffs and missing guitar solos from Emppu (that I can't tell if it was the band's or his personal decision) and a serious amount of pipes by Troy (which I honestly blame Tuomas for it XD) I think that EMFB showed a bit of band feel more than the previous release (not a burn to IRUM, love the album).
There is a part in EFMB that does sound a bit uninspired but I believe that is a due to other factors, not a lack of band's input.

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Yes and I think Floor herself at some point, correct me if I am wrong please, that she is fine with Tuomas handling all the lyrics although if she were invited to that was fine as well. I think she followed that statement with her plans to do things here and there on her own unfinished project. I am very excited that she may release something that is 100% her soon.

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Call me a pessimist, but I don''t think "soon" would be appropiate. She would need to release something this year, which I doubt it, and next year she'll tour with NW, and who knows what will happen 2019 onwards, bu most likely, NW recordings will begin, so if we were to expect something from her it would be 2019 at the earliest.

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Floor has said she doesn't feel the need to write anything for Nightwish, although she's confident that if she were to someday present something to Tuomas that she felt suited the band she'd be given a fair shot at it just like Marco.

By the way, am I the only one hearing similarities to She Is My Sin in the opening leading up to the first verse in this track below?

 

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It sounds similar, but don't forget that the actual inventors of that riff are Children of Bodom

 

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Speaking of similarities...

Marco's vocal doppelganger?

 

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On 6/23/2017 at 0:45 PM, Spirit of Whiterun said:

Yes and I think Floor herself at some point, correct me if I am wrong please, that she is fine with Tuomas handling all the lyrics although if she were invited to that was fine as well. I think she followed that statement with her plans to do things here and there on her own unfinished project. I am very excited that she may release something that is 100% her soon.

Yeah, from what I can remember that's what she said.
Dunno about future projects. She'll be in a couple shows with Ayron in September, so that's something to look forward. Haven't listened the album yet (too many good ones on my list atm) but it will be special, I'm sure.

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On 20/06/2017 at 3:31 PM, Ahasverus said:

Marco's lackluster contribution to lyrics made my stance of locking the writing privileges to Tuomas even more strict. The difference in both style and spirit was staggering.

And to think that I find Weak Fantasy and Empty Hope are the catchiest songs on the album...

I guess one man's Nemo truly is another man's Nympho.

 

On 28/05/2017 at 1:30 PM, Imaginarium said:

Composing genius? :rofl: Yeah, he is the main songwriter but composing genius? Please, don't compare him to real composing geniuses like Beethoven... Tuomas' songs are pretty much basic rock songs with simple structures, riffs and melodies, drowned behind an orchestra arranged by Pip. Nothing special in them in that way. Tuomas' compositions have been very repetitive for a long time and I would sure like the others do more songwriting in the future.

It's not a matter of quality.

"Composer" is usually reserved for a guy versed in various idioms of instrumental and vocal music that is published in written form and is continuously performed by music students and professional musicians around the world.

"Songwriter" is... a guy who writes songs in a rock band.
I find Holopainen is a good songwriter, more clever than he's given credit for, if also a subpar arranger/producer.

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Marco's lyrics are.. pedestrian, like a 15 years old trying to sound edgy on his poetry class. That those songs were about the most controversial topics didn't help. I think I'd rather have Tuomas' "cheese" than Marco's edge.

Quote

"Songwriter" is... a guy who writes songs in a rock band.
I find Holopainen is a good songwriter, more clever than he's given credit for, if also a subpar arranger/producer.

I find no lies in this statement.

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It's kind of funny to see how many of you criticize Tuomas so harshly, yet you are still discussing in this forum and you probably got here because of how much his music makes you feel.

This being said, I appreciate Tuomas so much because of the intention of his music, because of what it makes me feel. In my opinion this is the key factor in a songwriter. It's about using limited musical resources and putting them together so they make you feel something. Of course he is not a musical genius, if you wanted to listen to "geniuses" within rock or metal you can start with prog rock which bores me to death because I generally don't find myself feeling stuff amidst their virtuosity - except for the "I envy the way that guy plays" feeling.

Basically, it's pointless to complain about the quality of the oranges the apple tree provides. It's just pointless.

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