Dead To The World (92)

Vehicle Of Spirit

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Tarja always bailed in both Ever Dream's and She Is My Sin last chorus. Floor doesn't. And sings them while belting. Floor >>>>> and you know it in your hearts.

And when we come to the present day, the difference between the two is so big it's a bit ridiculous that there are some people still clinging to the idea that Tarja would make her songs more justice. She wouldn't. In fact, she doesn't.

 

 

In musical theory, the bass is supposed to be felt, not to be heard, it's the support, not the protagonist (unless explicitly called for it, as in a solo, or a "highlight" part).

 
I don't think that's precisely true, you know, but maybe you have a reference for that.

 

Doesn't apply to the German school, there all instruments are all for themselves and fight to death for the spotlight :P

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Yeah that's what I was hoping for! Stunning visuals and... Appropriate reverb on the vocals!

 

Went to the Wembley screening in the German cinema yesterday. Was quite impressed, though I was annoyed by the large amount of out of focus moments. The visuals were below standard half of the time and distracted me from the show. This is probably different when I'll watch it for the second time with a less critical eye. Sometimes they did really get it right though, but it was hit and miss. However, musically it was great! The Poet was stunning, 7 Days kicked ass and this version of Nemo was the best I've ever seen and heard! And it was really nice to see all the gestures of Floor close up and all the interactions between the members. The focus was really on the band and there were very few audience shots, and the few audience shots had me laughing out loud sometimes. They really added something this time instead of breaking the flow like in StSt.

Based on the Stargazers video, I'm going to prefer the Tampere show!!

 

The Tampere show seems to have just been filmed so much better. The whole look just looks better.

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Some people are cursed with absolute pitch to varying degrees :)

 

Oh I'm cursed with it all right. Believe me there are many times I wish I wasn't (like Ozzy's latter day live albums)

 

 

 

 

I don't understand the issue with changing the key. It's something they have every right to do and doesn't make the song "wrong." Didn't the band also admit that pretty much all of Oceanborn was written in a crazy high key? Better to admit that and make changes accordingly.

 


It wasn't written in a crazy high key! It was written in standard. Also, its not just the vocals that are effective. The entire outcome of the song changes (or in this case, gets messed up horribly). Metal is an instrument as well as a vocal based form of music. The entire song has melodies and licks people want to hear and sing. If those are tampered with and tuned lower, it sucks a lot of energy out of the song. Makes it sound hacky, like....Evanescence or something is trying (and failing) to cover the song. I honestly don't care if a singer wants to duck the high notes live (Hansi does it all the time), but when you start ***** with the riffs that's a massive problem. And the fact that the band doesn't want to make the sonic adjustments reeks of musical laziness.

 

 

 

 

Well, I do think it's the absolute best performance of Stargazers ever recorded.
I don't think it can be otherwise since it's the first :)

 

I beg to differ:

 

 

 


 


They used to perform She Is My Sin one key lower than the studio recording even back in the day. I can't recall people complaining about that, although there will of course always be people who are overly picky with these things.


Oh?

 

 

By the way I'm not trying to say Tarja now is better than Floor. I know Floor can nail these songs which is why this is so aggravating for me.

 


Addendum: Didn't mean to make two posts out of this, this forum's coding and setup is so weird to me.

 

Posts merged - WhiteRaven

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 The entire outcome of the song changes (or in this case, gets messed up horribly)...  The entire song has melodies and licks people want to hear and sing... Makes it sound hacky, like....Evanescence or something is trying (and failing) to cover the song.

 

What the...

 

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One thing I don't think anyone can deny about Floor is her ability to improve whatever aspect of her voice she chooses. I doubt she could have pulled this off in 2013!

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I don't understand the issue with changing the key. It's something they have every right to do and doesn't make the song "wrong." Didn't the band also admit that pretty much all of Oceanborn was written in a crazy high key? Better to admit that and make changes accordingly.

 

 

It wasn't written in a crazy high key!   It was written in standard.  Also, its not just the vocals that are effective.  The entire outcome of the song changes (or in this case, gets messed up horribly).  Metal is an instrument as well as a vocal based form of music.    The entire song has melodies and licks people want to hear and sing.  If those are tampered with and tuned lower, it sucks a lot of energy out of the song.  Makes it sound hacky, like....Evanescence or something is trying (and failing) to cover the song.  I honestly don't care if a singer wants to duck the high notes live (Hansi does it all the time), but when you start ***** with the riffs that's a massive problem.  And the fact that the band doesn't want to make the sonic adjustments reeks of musical laziness.

 

 

While I don't mind the key change I agree with this. Key is not just a variable you can change and expect it to sound the same. Some songs sound awful in another key. And for the instruments it really shouldn't be a problem. A key change is just something you have to practice, I mean there are keyboarders who can do a key change of the top of their head. You have to adapt with the sound if your singer sings an octave lower, sure. But that's why you're a professional musician. You're one of the superstar bands of the metal world. You're not supposed to take the easy way out.

 

About the high vocals, some people prefer high vocals to lower ones. It's got nothing to do with thinking high vocals are more impressive. But in some songs higher vocals sound more energetic than lower vocals. I think Stargazers is one of those songs. I'm not saying Tarja is better than Floor in general, cause she obviously isn't as an all-rounder (as an operatic singer, yeah she might be better, Floor doesn't sing operaticaly enough to really judge that). Just on this song I prefer Tarja. It's got nothing to do with technical ability, I prefered Annette to Tarja on some songs and Annette is obviously not as good as Tarja. There are opera singers who are amazing technically but do nothing for me emotionally. So I do think Tarja does some NW songs more justice (though I don't even know what that means) in the sense that I like her more on those songs. It's not like there is an essay of "the definitive way to sing Stargazers" describing how that song is supposed to be interpreted. Everybody can like their own version best, no?

 

@18thAngel: Yes, absolutely. She is an amazingly talented and already an amazingly skilled singer. And she is only 35. She can still improve. Though it remains to be seen how much time having a child will take away from her musical activities (if any). What I mean by that is not that she won't dedicate herself to Nightwish, but people's priorities do shift when they have a family. But then Hansi has a family and he's still improving, so I'm hopeful.

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With Tarja they never performed She is my Sin downtuned. In 2004/2005, the only songs that weren't in their original tuning were Beauty and the Beast, Stargazers (not sure about that one, have to check the video again of that disaster performance from 2004) and Deep Silent Complete. But since 2008 they downtune every song backwards Century Child.

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I guess my memory was playing tricks on me then, but either way I honestly don't see a problem with downtuning. Again, if the new keys had been the originals you would never have remarked about them being "too low" or "wrong" but just accepted that this would be what the songs were supposed to be like.

 

Anyhow, for what it's worth I shared the Stargazers video in a music discussion thread on another forum and the first comment I got was "fat bass!".

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I hate auto tuning of live DVDs, I would rather have a live raw vocal mix. You can hear the true emotions, can feel the power and passion.

 

I'm also for keeping mistakes, it's a "Live" dvd. It's meant to a concert experience, perfect but, With mistakes.

 

I'm a big fan of bootleg soundboard recordings, I end up enjoying them more then the offical home release

 

I agree although I am really curious about what they did with Floor vocals during the last high note in GLS, because if you look it up on YouTube and listen to it... I mean I really like Floor and she had hit the right note so many times... But this time, uff... Stargazers sounds pretty good on the other hand (don't understand why they added that applause in the background while Floor is speaking and removed the audience from the "hey! hey!" part though).

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I'm all for pitch correction as long as it's tastefully done. As soon as it starts to sound artificial, then it's bad. If it's just correcting a bum note to sound like exactly what it would have sound like if it hadn't been missed, then I see no wrong with correcting it for an official recording. But honestly, the best way to fix such notes is to just keep random soundboard recordings (they're so easy to record) from various shows and just swap it out for a perfect live take instead.

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I'm all for pitch correction as long as it's tastefully done. As soon as it starts to sound artificial, then it's bad. If it's just correcting a bum note to sound like exactly what it would have sound like if it hadn't been missed, then I see no wrong with correcting it for an official recording. But honestly, the best way to fix such notes is to just keep random soundboard recordings (they're so easy to record) from various shows and just swap it out for a perfect live take instead.

 

 Amen.

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Rant alert. Do not open the spoiler. Do. Not. Open. The Spoiler.

 

...ok, you've been warned:

 

 

I hate pitch correction under any circumstances. Why pretend you are perfect when you're not? If you messed up you messed up. It's nothing to cry about. We are all just human. Pitch correction takes the humanity out of the performance. And you can say "oh but look she did it right those other times, so she's capable of it so why not change it?". Well first, you're not recording the other times, you're recording this time. Second, in those other times she probably made mistakes on other songs. No one gets through a performance with no mistakes every night. Not Floor, not Hansi, not Russel Allen, no one. If you choose to record two full shows you should live with the mistakes you made on those shows. You are Nightwish, you are Floor Jansen, you are amazing musicians, you don't have to pretend to be better than you are. Some of my favorite live recordings have terrible quality, but it's real music the way it sounds, unpolished, uncut, REAL. Once you start all this correcting and polishing and pitch correcting and whatever you alter the reality of the performance. Probably in their case not much, but still. 

 

That's not to say I won't buy the DVD and enjoy it, but I am vehemently opposed to doing anything to a live recording other than making sure it sounds as close to how it actually sounded to someone in the audience. I know it's not quite as simple as that since it sounds different from different positions in the arena and all that, but still. Give me any position in the arena but don't take it from the freaking speakers directly. 

 

And I get why bands do it, because this is what people want. People expect perfection on a record these days, even a live record. But it's not human. No one is perfect.

 

EDIT: And I'm not saying people who want perfection don't know anything about music or anything like that. It's just that to me mistakes make a performance more human.

 

 

That reaction when he realizes he just messed up is priceless. But this would never. Ever. End up on an official recording. And I don't like that. Everyone can like what they like obviously, and I'm not saying people who don't like mistakes don't like real music or something like that. But I think mistakes make a performance so much more human.

 

 

Summary: I think mistakes make a performance more human.

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I'm all for pitch correction as long as it's tastefully done. As soon as it starts to sound artificial, then it's bad. If it's just correcting a bum note to sound like exactly what it would have sound like if it hadn't been missed, then I see no wrong with correcting it for an official recording. But honestly, the best way to fix such notes is to just keep random soundboard recordings (they're so easy to record) from various shows and just swap it out for a perfect live take instead.

I couldn't agree more. A live experience is a live experience and must be respected, but I don't see why they must keep accidental slips and errors on a Blue Ray or DVD; a few corrections here and there don't do any harm and make the final product more attractive without depriving us of an actual live performance. The whole sound is filtered, remixed and processed, why maintain an error? If I attend a concert I don't mind the mistakes, that's part of the live experience and it's OK. Let's say that I'm spiritually prepared for that, but a DVD with mistakes is not the same because we will listen to it once and again and will have to deal with the same mistake forever and ever, which is deeply unrealistic as well. Anyway, it's not big deal.

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but a DVD with mistakes is not the same because we will listen to it once and again and will have to deal with the same mistake forever and ever, which is deeply unrealistic as well. 

 

Perfectly put.

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I'm all for pitch correction as long as it's tastefully done. As soon as it starts to sound artificial, then it's bad. If it's just correcting a bum note to sound like exactly what it would have sound like if it hadn't been missed, then I see no wrong with correcting it for an official recording. But honestly, the best way to fix such notes is to just keep random soundboard recordings (they're so easy to record) from various shows and just swap it out for a perfect live take instead.

I couldn't agree more. A live experience is a live experience and must be respected, but I don't see why they must keep accidental slips and errors on a Blue Ray or DVD; a few corrections here and there don't do any harm and make the final product more attractive without depriving us of an actual live performance. The whole sound is filtered, remixed and processed, why maintain an error? If I attend a concert I don't mind the mistakes, that's part of the live experience and it's OK. Let's say that I'm spiritually prepared for that, but a DVD with mistakes is not the same because we will listen to it once and again and will have to deal with the same mistake forever and ever, which is deeply unrealistic as well. Anyway, it's not big deal.

 

 

Because those mistakes happened. I don't see why you need to make yourself better than you are if you are as good as Nightwish is. I mean isn't this more "how we wanted to sound" than "how we actually sounded" when you start remixing a live recording? Maybe I misunderstood what you mean, they obviously mix it on the show, but what you're saying is you don't mind them taking the individual instruments as they were recorded and remix them again in the studio, is that correct? I admit I don't like that they do that if they do that. Why not take the mixing you had when you played? If that mixing has flaws than those flaws are part of the live experience to me. My point is, when you start post-processing your live recording I can never be sure what of that is really live and what of that is post-processing. I want to know how you sound, not how you would have sounded if everything would have been ideal.

 

EDIT: A DVD with mistakes is more unique than any album because those mistakes are unique to that performance.

 

But of course you're right that it's no big deal, and in their case it's probably minor corrections anyway. But I think in principle live should be as live as possible.

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I'm all for pitch correction as long as it's tastefully done. As soon as it starts to sound artificial, then it's bad. If it's just correcting a bum note to sound like exactly what it would have sound like if it hadn't been missed, then I see no wrong with correcting it for an official recording. But honestly, the best way to fix such notes is to just keep random soundboard recordings (they're so easy to record) from various shows and just swap it out for a perfect live take instead.

I couldn't agree more. A live experience is a live experience and must be respected, but I don't see why they must keep accidental slips and errors on a Blue Ray or DVD; a few corrections here and there don't do any harm and make the final product more attractive without depriving us of an actual live performance. The whole sound is filtered, remixed and processed, why maintain an error? If I attend a concert I don't mind the mistakes, that's part of the live experience and it's OK. Let's say that I'm spiritually prepared for that, but a DVD with mistakes is not the same because we will listen to it once and again and will have to deal with the same mistake forever and ever, which is deeply unrealistic as well. Anyway, it's not big deal.

 

 

Totally disagree. If it's live, than mistakes are live as well, and should be kept. Don't want to have mistakes on your DVD? Well then don't make them during the concert you're shooting. 

What's next, people fixing the video recordings of their first sex, so that the friends would not mock them how they screwed up? Oh wait.....

 

 

 

Perfectly put.

 

 

 

Well I have to live with EFMB the song each time I want to listen to the full album, and here I am, still alive and healthy, and listening to NW. 

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A matter of taste anyway. To be honest, if I had attended the show I would have liked a faithful release of the performance, exactly as it actually was, mistakes included, because I would like to reproduce my own experience, but since I wasn't there I don't have any reason to keep them. But after all, it's just something subjective. It's an industrial product, a Blue-Ray/DVD release, so I don't find any reason to keep accidental mistakes. They can do it, why not? I'm going to buy it anyway and will enjoy it. I'm not going to freak out. Ah, fortunately there isn't any video recording of my first sex experience ;)  But if it existed, I would have liked a polished version without mistakes, that's for sure.  :P My honour is in danger.

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Perfectly put.

 

 

 

Well I have to live with EFMB the song each time I want to listen to the full album, and here I am, still alive and healthy, and listening to NW. 

 

 

There is this new concept, just came out of the labs: It's called a playlist :P No seriously, why would you listen to the full album if you think one of the songs suck? I never listen to full albums for exactly this reason, because there is always at least one song which goes on my nerves.

 

On a more serious note, Nightwish records this album for the majority of the fans, and fans nowadays expect a certain level of technical quality. It's not like they really have a choice.

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Basically Sam resumed what I think.I want to have a live sound, if that "live" sound comes with some mistakes, like missing notes, or forgotten lyrics, I'm alright with that. Back in the thread it was said that the best Nightwish live recording to date is "From Wishes to Eternity", because theey even re-recorded vocals just for the release. And I think that's exactly why I don't really like it. I prefer End of an Era, or even (GASP!!) Made in Hong Kong. From Wishes is so damn perfect the songs sound 90% like the studio versions with small crowd noises inserted here and there. Of course, you can say there are little variations, like the flute solo on "Pharaoh" being obviously played by Tuomas, but overall, songs like "Deep Silent Complete" or "Dead Boy's Poem" sound too perfect and too polished and I dare you to let someone who's not  a fan listen to them and he won't have any idea it was recorded live. Perhaps for some people that's the idea, but for me, I want to be able to distinguish a live song from a studio song. If they start retouching and correcting everything, in the end it becomes a studio version recorded live. I don't want that. I want a live experience, and if that live experience came with mistakes, I repeat, Nightwish is not Dream Theater or Rush, to play perfectly each evening, neither do I expect them to. Again, a live album is to showcase how a band sounds live and if they make mistakes, well, either you should lower your expectations or start listening to the aforementioned bands. 

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Perfectly put.

 

 

 

Well I have to live with EFMB the song each time I want to listen to the full album, and here I am, still alive and healthy, and listening to NW. 

 

 

There is this new concept, just came out of the labs: It's called a playlist :P No seriously, why would you listen to the full album if you think one of the songs suck? I never listen to full albums for exactly this reason, because there is always at least one song which goes on my nerves.

 

On a more serious note, Nightwish records this album for the majority of the fans, and fans nowadays expect a certain level of technical quality. It's not like they really have a choice.

 

 

But you can do the same with live albums - simply skip the songs with mistakes, or the ehole live album altogether if you hate mistakes. 

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For me, a live show is a live show, and a live dvd is a different thing.

For eventual imperfections, go see them live. But a dvd is something different for me at least. And with a band like Nightwish. I don't want any major missed notes. I want mythical perfection. It doesn't matter even if I would know that Floor missed this and that note during that concert - I want to play a dvd over and over and just enjoy. Not go like - oh have to skip that song because ouch.

As long as it's tastefully done of course. I'd rather they take a recording from another show than autotune badly.

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Correcting small  specific mistakes doesn't mean manipulating the whole performance, just fixing some tiny mistakes here and there, but keeping the original sound and atmosphere of the whole thing.

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For me, a live show is a live show, and a live dvd is a different thing.

For eventual imperfections, go see them live. But a dvd is something different for me at least. And with a band like Nightwish. I don't want any major missed notes. I want mythical perfection. It doesn't matter even if I would know that Floor missed this and that note during that concert - I want to play a dvd over and over and just enjoy. Not go like - oh have to skip that song because ouch.

As long as it's tastefully done of course. I'd rather they take a recording from another show than autotune badly.

 

Agreed. I think a live release like this is supposed to represent the tour as a whole, not necessarily just the specific show that was recorded. For mistakes and such we have less polished but still pro-shot recordings like the one from Mexico for example.

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https://youtu.be/NhEuAPYm_Ug?t=276

 

Why nobody mentions the missing (muted) notes here?

Because we're really tired of complaining about the mix. It's bad, but I think I got over it. I'll wish upon a star for next time. Hopefully Nuclear Blast gains some respect for the band that buys their pools. Doubt it though.

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