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JRA

Floor's Metal Test [Metal Hammer]

190 posts in this topic

So,

Team Tock is trashy, and uses a headline like that just because they know it will cause drama.

They also don't care that that is at the expense of Floor, they don't care that it will give her comment a lot of exposure.

Which makes me think that either they don't care that Nightwish is one of the bands that draws a lot of visits for them already, and that Nightwish might not give interviews in the future (they seem plenty happy to just steal interviews from others), or they don't like Floor, or they started disliking her because of her comment and thought to punish her for it.

And gosh that was undiplomatic to say the least! Seriously, Floor. Bad taste, in my humble opinion. Very uneccesary.

And yeah, a vocal portion of Slayer's fans are being very agressive towards Floor on her social media. Some nasty and unpleasant things written. She could probably report a few to the police.

 

And yes, it's certainly also about Floor being a woman, and being in a band like Nightwish which doesn't have as big status among those people who defend Slayer as they would have if they'd been fronted by Marco and he's made the comment, and there's much more rage, because - how dare a woman insult Slayer, that makes it much worse and she needs to be punished. Of course it has to do with that.

 

First of all, I don't make any judgement on how good Slayer are because I've never listened to them and I have no interest in doing so, but any decent band doesn't deserve to be called terrible like that. And while I think this "hiearky" is ridiculous, because people like what they like, it does take hard work to keep a band strong for 30 years. I think that should be acnowledged, and also Slayer's fans, even the terrible ones, doesn't deserve to get judged by another famous musician for listening to a band that makes "terrible" music.

This whole story is just  :sick: from all parties involved.

 

And yeah, you hear male musicians insult other artists now and again as well, I find it just as distasteful then. Not classy.

 

 

No it's really not. It just showing how far the American metal scene has dropped. You have Slayer shirts at Hot Topic. You have a ton of mallcore kids who pick up a Slayer shirt go this is the heaviest thing I have heard then pick up a Motionless in White album say it's black and gothic metal then did on Nightwish.

 

All they while they are going to Van Warped Tour.

 

The people ragging are about what she said are into the American metal scene right now is pure waste. The bands from the USA that are even good or great are taking cues from Euro bands.

 

Most so called Slayer fans are just posers who are listening to Bring me the Horizon. The people bagging on Floor are nothing but American metal fans who would not even give the time of day to most of the Euro metal bands.

 

It really has very little to do with sexism and more to do with culture. Where as the Euro metal scene grew by leaps and bounds. The American metal scene all but dead and has never been saved by any one band. It's not just the big four that they defend. Really go on youtube and say you like Dark Tranquillity better then Lamb of God. The Lamb of God fans hand out death threats to you. That's what the fan American metal fan base and the American metal bands they like have become. You say you like Arch Enemy better then In This Moment run for the hills because they come after you with pitch forks. Say you don't like Suicide Silence they want to hang you even if you listen to real death metal bands.

 

Just do it go on one of the videos and say you like Nile over Suicide Silence and they throw a fit. That's what's going on is you have a group of what amounts to snowflakes who can't handle people having a different opinion. Heaven forbid if you say you like a band like Kreator are better. That's just what the American metal scene or lack there of if you can call it that is like.

 

Just look at Chicago Open Air outside of three bands most ever band on there was either from the USA, Canada, or the UK that's about it. Just look at Heavy Montreal. Sure Nightwish was there and a few other bands from Europe. But look at the headliners. Look I like the band Death and if I were to say they are better then Slayer people would say the same thing about me as they did Floor.

 

That's just what they do.

 

 

 

 

And gosh that was undiplomatic to say the least! Seriously, Floor. Bad taste, in my humble opinion. Very uneccesary.

And yeah, a vocal portion of Slayer's fans are being very agressive towards Floor on her social media. Some nasty and unpleasant things written. She could probably report a few to the police.

 

Floor is not the first one to get this. Nor will she be the last. All that needs to be pointed out is that they are just posers.

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Well, if Anette were still in the band, we would never have such drama. I mean, who would seriously ask Anette on her opinion on Slayer or the most metal records she owns. Just saying, remember, remember, 28th September.....

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Wow, this pointless conversation here really makes me wanna delete my account.

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Wow, this pointless conversation here really makes me wanna delete my account.

I want to delete my account. To I found nothing sexist with what the Slayer fans are saying. All they are really doing is just being triggered for someone not liking Slayer. They do that to ever one. They are not doing it because Floor is female but because she said she finds them what dull. I find them dull to. But then again when I listen to a band like Symphony X I would find most thrash metal dull. I would say maybe lock the thread maybe your call not mine but it's pointless.

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Anticipating the people on this forum who were harsh on Floor for speaking her mind to give Slayer the same treatment for their statements on other bands.

 

*crickets chirping*

 

Honestly, I only know a couple of Slayer songs and don't really follow them so wasn't aware of this, but yeah, absolutely, if members of Slayer are bashing other bands that's just as unnecessary. It's one thing to dislike a band, and to be honest when asked about it, going out of your way to bash other bands makes you look like an arsehole - not to mention, it's particularly daft if it's a band within the same genre who you may end up having to share the stage with at some point. "Well, this isn't going to be an awkward evening at all!" :P

 

As regards the sexism discussion - honestly, I absolutely agree that sexism is alive and well within the metal commmunity. Probably not as present amongst the Nightwish forum or symphonic/gothic metal in general because the presence of women in these bands is a good deal less unusual. But you don't have to look very far to find album art or music videos depicting naked or scantily clad women dancing seductively, or sitting spreadeagled etc. that are basically just there to be ogled (I mean, the video for Battle Beast's "Madness" is frankly just embarassing, everyone in that looks uncomfortable. I can find more examples if anyone is particularly skeptical). There are certainly lyrics out there that are pretty objectifying towards women. And some metal fans and bandmembers seem to have an ... interesting attitude towards women to say the least (A friend of mine went to a metal festival a few years ago and mentioned that the frontman for one of the bands he saw spent an uncomfortable amount of time talking about how crap women were, basically- I forget which band, though I'm pretty sure it was neither Slayer nor Nightwish :P). None of this is unique to metal, of course, the objectification of women is sadly a music industry wide phenomenon, but let's not pretend that the metal scene is a bastion of equality.

 

As to whether the reaction to Floor is motivated by sexism - IMO, there would probably have been backlash if say, Tuomas or Marco had said the same thing. Nightwish is a big enough band, and Slayer enough of a metal institution, that tensions would rise. But the language and tone of many of the comments aimed at Floor certainly have plentiful elements of sexism within them.

 

 

 

Which goes back to my point about how there's elitism and musical snobbery involved. In terms of contemporary music, metal is among the worst in this regard. Of course, it's got nothing on the classical music community. But still. What does being a "legend" have to do with whether you like a band or not? There are plenty of "legends" I don't care for one bit. I'm sure it's the same for you. Of course, if I was in the business myself I'd probably prefer to be a bit more diplomatic with my answers than to say "I think band x sucks!" - but it's not worth getting upset over Floor stating her opinions so bluntly.

 

Which brings me to metal elitism. It came from people who where mad that someone would say "I hate Lamb of God." Or they would say " Don't like Slipknot they are not metal."

 

People who are fans of metalcore, deathcore, and nu-metal (which are not genres of metal no matter how much fans of those three genres want them to be) started calling ever one who did not like them ever thing from elitist to fans of pop music. It got even worse with bands like Trivium and Ax7 and there fans jumping on the big 4 bandwagon and calling any one who is not a fan of the big four posers. Turns out they are the posers because if you say you like a band like Iced Earth, or Exodus.

 

To put it to you this way the people that bring up metal elitism are A) those that shop at Hot Topic and think that Black Veil Brides. B) People who are fans of In This Moment, Slipknot, Suicide Silence, Motionless In White, New Years Day and Lamb of God. No matter what fans of those bands say they are not the be all end all of metal music or hardrock just because they are on the radio. C) Nu-metal fans who can't seem to get past the fact that bands like Adema, Limp Bizkit, Saliva, Static-X, Trapt, etc are not metal bands never where never will be and there all really bad. D) The American metal and hard rock scene is dead. The sooner they understand that the better the USA and Canada need more band taking ideas from metal bands in Europe. Oh sure there are a few hard rock bands from the USA I like and enjoy but for the most part it's dead the sooner the Europe bands take over and give more influence to bands in the USA the better. 

 

So where does metal elitism it is coined by fans of nu-metal, metalcore, deathcore, and post-hardcore who just can't stand the fact that for the most part those genres are dead and they need to stop kicking a dead horse. Just go on to a Motionless in White video say you don't like them and watch all the fans come at you calling you ever name under the son for not liking them  or not liking metalcore.

 

I will give you a good example. Epicas Never Enough song a fan of Five Finger Death Punch came on and started bad mouth them. What reason no one knows other then he said any out right lie.

 

But said fan would have done it to any band that falls into black metal, death metal, power metal, prog metal, gothic metal, symphonic metal a band with a male singer and a band with a female singer because they don't like those styles and think they are un-metal.

 

Heck I was waiting in line to see the band Stitched Up Heart (the only US hardrock band I enjoy) play and there was some girl who said bands who use keyboards in there music be it hard rock or metal are not hard rock or metal. Which made me laugh because a band like Dark Tranquillity. That comes from Dee Snider who thinks that bands who use keyboards or play acoustic. But he sure is willing to give Motionless In White a pass. So yeah that's where it comes from a group of people who refuse to step out side of the realm of mainstream metal and look to other genres that are big in other parts of the world.

 

That's because fans of Euro metal are far more open to trying new genres of metal then fans of American metal.  Just look at the few rock and metal fest in the USA. Just look at what happened to Mayhem fest. Ever thing that Kevin Lyman said was out of line. Mayhem fest dead because he refused to really go out and bring in Euro bands or bands in the USA that had that Euro style. He just brought ever metalcore, deathcore, and nu-metal act he could think of and people got sick of it. I mean he brought in one year Amon Amarth and they could have headlined. Who got the headline spot Rob Zombie. :|

 

 

I... don't want to start an argument here particularly - but... your whole post is basically talking about how open minded fans of European metal and X and Y genres are, and then in the same breath talking about how A, B and C genres that you don't like aren't REAL metal and are really bad and this fan and that don't know what they are talking about. How Euro metal/power metal/ symphonic metal fans aren't elitist, all the elitism comes from these other posers. They shop at *gasp* Hot Topic! They like *horror* BANDS THAT ARE VERY WELL KNOWN! Your whole post is a massive example of metal elitism, WHILST BASHING METAL ELITISM.

 

Also, I'm sure there are a lot of enlightened, open minded black metal bands and fans. But it's also the genre that spawned Varg "Thundering Racist Murderer" Vikernes and the "charming" NSBM subgenre, so you know, nothing's perfect :P

 

That's not to say that people acting like disliking Slayer/ Megadeth/ Judas Priest/ whatever should somehow get you disqualified from membership of the "Metal Club" are not also being elitist. That attitude also sucks and is a massive downside to the community. But, come on....

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I'm kinda surprised they never had Mayhem headline Mayhem festival.  You'd think that marketing would write itself.

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That's not to say that people acting like disliking Slayer/ Megadeth/ Judas Priest/ whatever should somehow get you disqualified from membership of the "Metal Club" are not also being elitist. That attitude also sucks and is a massive downside to the community. But, come on....

Well.

 

Those are the rules of the game.

I didn't make them. Nobody on this forum made them.

They were handed down by... well, somebody who could legally drink in the 80s.

 

Metal works like that. It's got its holy cows and all, like many other communities and subcultures.

 

As I mentioned, you wouldn't want to enter a Manchester pub yelling "George Best sucked", would you?

 

What I don't get is why some people feel offended by metalheads being... un-politically correct, close-minded and all.

I mean, it's metal, we are not talking about a conference on quantum physics.

 

You know, that genre of rock music marketed to teenagers, with the loud guitars, the zombies and skulls on album covers, the leather jackets, band logo patches and all.

Of course it's less civilized than soccer!

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I like people arguing about how NW should abide by some unwritten (ridiculous, backwards, cult-like, imaginary)  metal rules when they've repeatedly said they're not even metal. This very same week even. 

 

As Baratheon said, this is a really pointless conversation.

 

Just let them be.

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Uh, last time I entered a record store Nightwish were in the "hard rock and heavy metal" section...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I trust that will ultimately change with the release of Bongo Bongo Hey Hey.

 

 

EDIT:

 

As to whether the reaction to Floor is motivated by sexism - IMO, there would probably have been backlash if say, Tuomas or Marco had said the same thing. Nightwish is a big enough band, and Slayer enough of a metal institution, that tensions would rise. But the language and tone of many of the comments aimed at Floor certainly have plentiful elements of sexism within them.

Like, using the word "****" in reference to female genitalia instead of "****", the vernacular word for testicles?

 

Yes, it's as if women's suffrage never happened. Dark times we're living in.

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Uh, last time I entered a record store Nightwish were in the "hard rock and heavy metal" section...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I trust that will ultimately change with the release of Bongo Bongo Hey Hey.

That doesn't mean they are shackled to the cult mentality really. They do as they please, it's a free world, and if they wanna diss Beethoven, they damn well can. Same if the new album is a salsa one.

 

Whatever. As long as they have food on their tables (and they will pretty much for all their lives already) I don't think they care anymore about what the keepers of the purity think.

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They do as they please, it's a free world, and if they wanna diss Beethoven, they damn well can.

And since it's a free world, people can comment on that, right?

 

Especially if it's something that's

 

(1) in bad taste in general

(2) against the etiquette in the community they - like it or not - are part of?

 

 

Of course mine was a rhethorical question. The answer is: yes, people do have a right to criticize the latest media fiasco from a member of Nightwish :)

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I'd suppose Floor is adult enough to own her own words and consequences. I'd be glad if there aren't any more band feuds in the future, but I can't say I'd rather censor any of the guys' opinion.

 

And again, the supposed community thing is not really backed up by anything. Sales? Well above their peers, which means they don't share the public that much. Music? Instruments aside, their style is more pop/hard rock with some power influences than metal, and you know it. Image.. Maybe? They dress in black sometimes, I guess, that's where their overlap with the "metal community" ends imo. They play in metal festivals? Sure, because metal is the genre their labels have worked in, but they wouldn't be out of place from a download festival or some other mainstream rock one, which cannot be said of most of the other bands. I think NW are such a strange beast, and that's their key to success. The day they become Epica or whatever, the day NW dies.

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Wow, this pointless conversation here really makes me wanna delete my account.

 

We have some time to kill until 16 Dec, you know? :)

 

But ... if this thread is getting you exasperated, how can you live with forum gems like "Misquote the person above you" in forum fun or the Annette Olzon thread? ;)

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I'm kinda surprised they never had Mayhem headline Mayhem festival.  You'd think that marketing would write itself.

That's not shocking. Read up on the guy who ran it. He had no clue what he was doing. Sure he got lucky with Van Warped Tour. But when you refuse to even get Iron Maiden then that's his problem.

 

 

 

I... don't want to start an argument here particularly - but... your whole post is basically talking about how open minded fans of European metal and X and Y genres are, and then in the same breath talking about how A, B and C genres that you don't like aren't REAL metal and are really bad and this fan and that don't know what they are talking about.

 

The American metal scene filled with metalcore, deathcore, whatevercore, numetal, etc is bad. It's really bad right now. That sadly is a fact. The fan base is just as bad.

 

 

 

They shop at *gasp* Hot Topic! They like *horror* BANDS THAT ARE VERY WELL KNOWN! Your whole post is a massive example of metal elitism, WHILST BASHING METAL ELITISM.

 

Have you even heard half the bands that are being called metal in the USA right now? Half are hardcore bands the other half is post-hardcore. The other part are just hardrock. Then you have deathcore bands being called death metal. 90% of the people who shop Hot Topic don't even listen to metal music yet are willing to buy a Slayer shirt then get mad at people when there called out on not being a fan of Slayer or of metal music at all.

 

That's not elitism that those are facts. Floor had her opinion acted the same way any one who says they don't like Slipknot, Slayer, etc. If she would have said she did not like Lamb of God the same thing would have happened. If she said she did not like Slipknot same thing and the list goes on.

 

 

 

You know, that genre of rock music marketed to teenagers, with the loud guitars, the zombies and skulls on album covers, the leather jackets, band logo patches and all.

Of course it's less civilized than soccer!

 

And this is the point and  the problem with the metal scene in the USA right now when it comes to metal music. The fact that  METAL ELITISM is used on people who don't like meatlcore. I'm sorry but 90% of the metalcore bands are nothing but hardcore bands with a few metal elements thrown in here and there. It's not elitism to point out that hardcore music has nothing to do with metal.

 

Floors whole point is people can like and dislike what they want. I mean I will be honest Nightwish fans are just as bad as bashing bands to or getting mad when someone does not like them.

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And again, the supposed community thing is not really backed up by anything.

 

Except for the following:

  • the band is on a metal label
  • plays metal festivals
  • its members have all played in metal bands (unless Tarot is R&B and Wintersun is polkka :) )
  • ditto for the guests (Kakko and Wilska!) 
  • in the olden days its audience (at least outside Finland, where things are strange) was composed almost entirely of metalheads

More importantly: musically and aesthetically, the first 4 or 5 albums are a blend of Theatre of Tragedy, The Gathering and Visions-era Strato.

So yeah, I'd say Nightwish are firmly rooted in the metal community, even if they have (tried to) branch out since DPP :)

 

This is, after all, why Blabbermouth (a metal site) is running a news story on Nightwish in the first place, the one that we're discussing, right? :)

 

 

The day they become Epica or whatever, the day NW dies.

 

But... wasn't Epica started by the guy from After Forever and Simone Simons who, at the time, was enamoured with Oceanborn?

(Which in turn was heavily influenced by Stratovarius, according to Holopainen himself)

 

I mean, I thought the similarities outnumbered the differences between the two bands.

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Have you listened to Epica recently? They're one or two albums away from becoming thrash metal. NW also was a power metal band once. 16 years ago.

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As to whether the reaction to Floor is motivated by sexism - IMO, there would probably have been backlash if say, Tuomas or Marco had said the same thing. Nightwish is a big enough band, and Slayer enough of a metal institution, that tensions would rise. But the language and tone of many of the comments aimed at Floor certainly have plentiful elements of sexism within them.

Often though, what they have left unsaid has caused more resentment on various forums than what they have said.

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That's not to say that people acting like disliking Slayer/ Megadeth/ Judas Priest/ whatever should somehow get you disqualified from membership of the "Metal Club" are not also being elitist. That attitude also sucks and is a massive downside to the community. But, come on....

Well.

 

Those are the rules of the game.

I didn't make them. Nobody on this forum made them.

They were handed down by... well, somebody who could legally drink in the 80s.

 

Metal works like that. It's got its holy cows and all, like many other communities and subcultures.

 

As I mentioned, you wouldn't want to enter a Manchester pub yelling "George Best sucked", would you?

 

What I don't get is why some people feel offended by metalheads being... un-politically correct, close-minded and all.

I mean, it's metal, we are not talking about a conference on quantum physics.

 

You know, that genre of rock music marketed to teenagers, with the loud guitars, the zombies and skulls on album covers, the leather jackets, band logo patches and all.

Of course it's less civilized than soccer!

 

 

It's because metal is somehow seen as that free-spirited genre which is not commercial, only about music and nothing else, where bands would never even think of adapting their music to what the public wants to hear, and so on. Of course metal is just as commercial as any other genre when you get to the level of professional bands, but some people wish it were otherwise. Those people are not so much metal purists really but music purists who think it should only be about the music and nothing else. 

 

And those are the same people who will totally buy the freaking Vehicle of Spirit box-set :P

 

I like people arguing about how NW should abide by some unwritten (ridiculous, backwards, cult-like, imaginary)  metal rules when they've repeatedly said they're not even metal. This very same week even. 

 

As Baratheon said, this is a really pointless conversation.

 

Just let them be.

 

They can say that a hundred times, but the fact is that it's not like they haven't rolled with being perceived as metal for over a decade. They are marketed by a metal label. They are playing at metal festivals. They are touring with metal bands. They are looking and dressing like metal artists. They are using metal concert typical show elements and their frontwoman is considered one of the most metal women on the planet. I get what they mean by "we're not metal", but they really are metal. They are metal with other elements mixed in, but that doesn't mean they're not metal. They're not TYPICAL metal, but if you paint the hair of a cat in green it's still a cat. Just not a typical cat.

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I'm kinda surprised they never had Mayhem headline Mayhem festival.  You'd think that marketing would write itself.

That's not shocking. Read up on the guy who ran it. He had no clue what he was doing. Sure he got lucky with Van Warped Tour. But when you refuse to even get Iron Maiden then that's his problem.

 

I feel like Maiden would be too big for Mayhem.  Dave Mustaine realized that when he was doing Gigantour.

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not to mention, it's particularly daft if it's a band within the same genre who you may end up having to share the stage with at some point. "Well, this isn't going to be an awkward evening at all!" :P

 

 

Floor didn't originally have any nice words to say about Nightwish back in 2007 when asked about the vocalist drama at the time, yet she ended up becoming part of the band five years later and they've now formed a great bond. Perhaps not the same thing, since I think even Nightwish would agree the events surrounding the split with Tarja could have been handled much better (but hindsight is 20/20). Still, I think it shows that Floor has never been one to keep her thoughts to herself just to please as many people as possible. I actually think she wouldn't change her mind if she'd meet Slayer at some festival and they asked her about it. Maybe she wouldn't use hyperboles regarding how bad she thought their music was but she'd probably say "sorry, not just my cup of tea".

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Floor didn't originally have any nice words to say about Nightwish back in 2007 when asked about the vocalist drama at the time, 

 

Source?  I'd like to read this.

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It was mentioned somewhere in the original thread where we discussed who should replace Anette before it became official I believe. Didn't save the link. From what I recall it wasn't anything really bad and certainly more diplomatic than her Slayer comment. I tried to search for it via Google but it's like finding a needle in a haystack now with all the articles linking Floor to Nightwish since she joined. She didn't trash them or anything, just to make that clear.

 

Floor has also said that Within Temptation isn't her cup of tea in the past, without meaning to speak badly of them. It was more along those lines, regarding the decision to hire Anette to replace Tarja and the Dark Passion Play album.

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I am kinda disappointing in Floor, she resembles Anette's attitude in this regard too much. Sure, I don't think any reasonable person would hate her for not liking Slayer, but there is a great deal of difference of stating that something's not your cup of tea, and that someone's music is terrible or extremely boring. And that comment "I am sure they wouldn't listen to my band either" is really immature and presumptuous, to presuppose other people's music taste. Instead of maybe simply admitting her words were a little bit too extreme, she goes all Anette Olzon. 

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Floor didn't originally have any nice words to say about Nightwish back in 2007 when asked about the vocalist drama at the time,

 

Source?  I'd like to read this.

 

I assume that Magnus was talking about the interview below and that question in particular?

 

Interview with Floor by MetalWays in 2007:

M-W: Ok, to conclude, a more general question: what is the most positive thing about being the singer of After Forever? 

 

Well, the fact that I can sing things that are written by myself: lyrics and melodies. It's great to be able to do that. For instance, look at Anette, or even Tarja from Nightwish, she sang what Tuomas wrote: his lines, his words. And I can do my thing, I'm totally myself in this band, and I think that's the most important thing!

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Floor didn't originally have any nice words to say about Nightwish back in 2007 when asked about the vocalist drama at the time,

 

Source?  I'd like to read this.

 

I assume that Magnus was talking about the interview below and that question in particular?

 

Interview with Floor by MetalWays in 2007:

M-W: Ok, to conclude, a more general question: what is the most positive thing about being the singer of After Forever? 

 

Well, the fact that I can sing things that are written by myself: lyrics and melodies. It's great to be able to do that. For instance, look at Anette, or even Tarja from Nightwish, she sang what Tuomas wrote: his lines, his words. And I can do my thing, I'm totally myself in this band, and I think that's the most important thing!

 

But now, ​here is the song she sings in her head.

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