Devious Mischievous

Nightwish Confessions

1,593 posts in this topic

That's crap, no one is regarding them as heroes. You are right, no one is calling them "morons" and "unprofessional", we prefer the terms "bastards" and "killers". The company that set up the fireworks is under investigation and there is literally NO ONE taking their side. Same with the club owners. The only ones that were shown compassion are the band members, because they were only tangentially responsible as they hired professionals to handle the fireworks (by the way, there was no pyro, just some very small fireworks who shouldn't have started a fire anywhere else except in that chemically-infested club, apparently). They are not safe from the shockwave either, you should check their facebook page, there are some horrible things written there. The thing is that three of the bandmembers are dead and two are in serious condition, so normal people have been reserved in the blame-throwing comments. Even if they think they were somewhat wrong and they should've done a better job at checking the location and the firework company, they realise now is really not the time for this.

 

The band/band management *is* directly responsible for posting a disrespectful message and publicly showing indifference towards something that deeply affected their fans (you know, the ones they don't want to betray). The band itself is reponsible for surrounding itself with people who are a) incompetent (you cannot argue that such a message is successful public communication, no matter how much you want to praise the band) and b) insensitive. This is not about inflamed local egos (and the very fact that this is how you understood the issue speaks volumes about what kind of person you are as well), this is about showing respect towards a national tragedy and towards people that are suffering. They don't have to waddle themselves in tears or donate money from the sales or post supportive messages on facebook like countless other artists did, that is going the extra mile, they just have to respect our suffering and not talk about it like it's not such a big deal. If someone would kill your friend in a non-impressive drunk&drive accident and one week someone else would tell you "get real, why should I stop doing x because some moron got drunk and got behind the wheels?", wouldn't you be enraged? And would it be your ego or would it be your pain speaking?

 

You know what, I don't even know what pisses me off more, the fact that there is one stupid employee/manager that represents the voice of the band, or that there are so many people defending them even when any rule of common sense, humanity and compassion says there's really nothing to defend here? Or the fact that in the process of defending them, they are calling *us* stupid or proud?

 

 

Swearing removed. Please refrain from swearing (including abbreviations) outside of the Speakers Corner area. - Dandelion

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God, how can someone be so insensitive... I hope some of you who are defending this, never happen to your family or someone close to you.

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I confess ... I think we can return this topic to its original purpose ...

Enough has been said already ...  we can all agree to disagree.

There's no need to prolong this unnecessarily.

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Then I would like to ask the mods to move this conversation to a more appropriate thread (I couldn't think of one and felt it would be disrespectful to come on their forum and open a topic specifically to tell them they suck). The band's official attitude towards their fans is something worth debating and I think it's important that the fans know what kind of people they are supporting.

 

And to those who want to argue on the use of the word "official", until the band explicitly separates itself from that opinion, it is the official attitude - it's an official message, through an official communication channel, from an official representant.

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@ish

 

If members of this forum feel the need to talk about what happened and how they feel about the situation in Romania. For now, this is the right thread to put their opinion about this. Period.

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We are not responsible for Nw.com nor for Nw FB. "Why not"? We have a few more sites/forums/FB pages to take care of. That is quite enough for our Team.

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No, we are upset about the general attitude. Indeed, they shouldn't have to cancel the show and they should address it, but the impression they gave off was that they couldn't give a damn about what happened. The message was along the lines "don't be stupid, as if we're going to cancel the show for some unimportant people who died".

 

I understand that and I do agree it was poorly worded, but I don't think that's what they meant. The impression I got was that they were frustrated with all the stupid people who tried to somehow link the accident to Nightwish and demanded the show to be cancelled. I'm guessing it had to be quite a significant number since they felt like they had to respond. I really think you can tell that the statement was written as a direct response to these people rather than being worded as a public announcement (which it should have been). 

 

 

...the message and the idea were flawed to begin with - we don't care, what's that got to do with us

 

That's not necessarily what they said though, but rather how some people perceived it. As I mentioned above, I think it comes off as more of a knee-jerk reaction to the people who were telling them to cancel, where the intention was to call them out on their stupidity and lack of logic rather than to make a statement about the incident. It seems to me that the people who run the fanpage has a tendency of getting too personal at times, forgetting that they're representing a band and a brand.

 

Like you said in another post, it is just a number to most people but depending on the nature of the conversation that's not necessarily how you should talk about it. This isn't the first time they've generated controversy that could have been avoided if they had just been a bit more eloquent. And that is of course a problem which has to be addressed internally.

 

God, how can someone be so insensitive... I hope some of you who are defending this, never happen to your family or someone close to you.

 

No one is defending it. I think there are just different interpretations on what the intention of the original statement was. But I also think everyone agrees that it came off as unprofessional.

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No, sadly not everyone agrees they came off as unprofessional, there are tons of people on Facebook saying that we misunderstood what they said because we can't speak English properly, or that indeed why should they care about what happened and just above, you have ish saying that the band doesn't have to do anything to clean up this mess since these are just some "inflamed local egos".

 

I disagree that the phrasing is the problem. I already knew they're unprofessional when it comes to communication, but this time I think they really meant it. That as you said, they got pissed off that people were asking them to give up their well earned money for something they couldn't give a rat's arse about, and they blurted out whatever they were thinking at that moment, without taking the time to filter it. That this what they really think of the fans and of what happened and this time there wasn't anyone around to embellish their thoughts.

 

I'm sorry, but I cannot believe for one second that a kind and compassionate person can blurt out something like that, poor phrasing or not. It's like the head of the orthodox church said when asked why didn't the church help more that "people should go to the church, not go to clubs". I'll let you interpret the message yourself, but there's no going around it, no amount of rephrasing and euphemisms could ever make this sound right. The thought was rotten to begin with. On a smaller scale, the situation is the same here.

 

PS: it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if people are upset and emotional enough to ask them to cancel, then they're upset and emotional enough to be extra-sensitive to messages regarding this matter. Which is why, if you care at all about those people, you should put more then a 5 seconds thought into expressing said messages. For me it's clear that they didn't care.

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I confess ... I think we can return this topic to its original purpose ...

Enough has been said already ...  we can all agree to disagree.

There's no need to prolong this unnecessarily.

So I will take this post and confess:

 

I really do not like Amaranth or Eva. I think, they are the worst songs ever written by Tuomas. They are so boring I cannot stand them. I don't know why people love them so much.

 

I am absolutely terrified by the fact that one day, I will read a statement on Twitter or the NW website that one of the band members is dead. :ermm:

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I copy the posts of the Nightwish management on the band´s facebook page.

 

The original post is in response to someone who mentions the club fire and suggests cancelling the Bucharest concert. (I am not sure about the  date, either 6 or 7 Nov, 2015).

 

"So we should just betray our Romanian fans and cancel the show just because some goddam morons burned down a night club and killed 32 people. Get real. We feel really sorry for all these victims and their families. Now it is exactly the right time come over. You are not alone."

 

Some people have misunderstood that the band called the victims as morons. Some have also misunderstood that "come over" means "get over", in this connection come over means coming to Bucharest. I understand the last two sentences as a suggestion for the Romanian metal fans to come  to the Nightwish concert and grieve together for the dead metal brothers and sisters, something like a memorial concert for the dead.

 

The original post was revised on 7 Nov, 2015.

 

"Dear people of Romania. We  feel really sorry about the club fire and the victims and their families. We want to encourage all of you to carry on, even though it might be really hard at the moment. We truly respect the memory of all the victims. We will not have any pyros at the show. Peace to all of you."

 

I cannot understand what is wrong with this post.

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I'm sorry, but I cannot believe for one second that a kind and compassionate person can blurt out something like that, poor phrasing or not. It's like the head of the orthodox church said when asked why didn't the church help more that "people should go to the church, not go to clubs". I'll let you interpret the message yourself, but there's no going around it, no amount of rephrasing and euphemisms could ever make this sound right. The thought was rotten to begin with. On a smaller scale, the situation is the same here.

 

Maybe I'm a bit naive, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and think that if you were to have a conversation with them about what they've said it would become clear that they didn't mean to imply the things and many others took away from their post. I'd like to think that the revised statement, which is perfectly fine, was written by people who by now have realised that this is how they should have handled it in the first place.

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In my opinion, the clumsiest part is the "just because", which gives the impression the tragedy is irrelevant. I think the band (or the people in charge of their page) should be more careful about these things because they tarnish their image. The tone is too passionate and vehement, which is OK if you are writing on behalf of yourself, but not if the reputation of a band is at stake. Anyway, the tone is probably inadequate, but the message is clear, badly worded but clear in support  for the victims: "the right time to come over. You are not alone". 

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I really do not like Amaranth or Eva. I think, they are the worst songs ever written by Tuomas. They are so boring I cannot stand them. I don't know why people love them so much.

 

I am absolutely terrified by the fact that one day, I will read a statement on Twitter or the NW website that one of the band members is dead. :ermm:

 

I confess that I really like Amaranth but I don't care for Eva. I don't even really like Meadows of Heaven that much...

 

I further confess that it would be kinda funny if Tuomas wrote his will in poetic prose. Because then when he died...

 

 

 

 

(It would be a dead boy's poem!)

Edited by J_Finlay

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Anyway, the tone is probably inadequate, but the message is clear, badly worded but clear in support  for the victims: "the right time to come over. You are not alone".

 

That was not the original post, that was one of the sweetened up versions. I posted the original post 1-2 pages back. There was no message of support there.

 

Some people have misunderstood that the band called the victims as morons. Some have also misunderstood that "come over" means "get over", in this connection come over means coming to Bucharest. I understand the last two sentences as a suggestion for the Romanian metal fans to come to the Nightwish concert and grieve together for the dead metal brothers and sisters, something like a memorial concert for the dead.

 

I would like to ask you to first read, and then write. Like I said at least three times, no one misunderstood anything. There is literally no post saying or suggesting that from the people accusing the band. Only those defending it have said we misunderstood, I guess they know better than us what we're thinking... Also, as I said above, there was not "this is the right time to come over" in the original message so a) there was nothing to misunderstand and b) you're the one misunderstanding what people have clearly said - that the tone of the message is one of "get over it, it's not important". The tone, not the actual words.

 

And you know, I actually find that quite offending that everyone is so quick to jump and say we can't understand three simple sentences. Romanians learn English from the second grade, none of the shows or cartoons or movies are dubbed, they're all in the original language (which is English, most of the times) and most of the people with an internet connection have absolutely no problem speaking and understanding English. Especially those writing on english speaking pages. There is really no need to suggest we're ignorant in order to better defend the band, that's just as offensive as what they did.

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@angel_heart

 

But I did read comments on the Nightwish facebook, not all of them, but about 100 starting from the top and out of some 400. Bibiana Vackova corrected the misinterpretation of the text by some Romanians and perhaps by some other nationalities, the word "morons" referred to those responsible for the club fire (209 thumbs up). At least Visan Alex-Dorin and Serban Enache (with 5 - 6 thumbs up, so they got support from at least some people) understood that the Nightwish management called the club fire victims as morons. Ella Comaneanu (with 5 thumbs up) disapproved the Nightwish management text because in her opinion it said to "get over" the incident instead of "coming over" to Romania. Maria Entreras and Socal Razvan wrote that "get real" means "be realistic" and  not "get over it". However, it seems that a majority of the readers understood correctly the words on the NW facebook posts.  Posts expressing support to Nightwish clearly outnumbered those criticizing the band or its management.

 

The club fire seems to be a national tragedy in Romania, and on that basis, very emotional reactions are understandable. In the NW facebook posts some Romanians wished to postpone the Nightwish concert in order to get more time to recover from the tragedy, while a majority of the posts supported the scheduled date of the concert. Wishes were also expressed that Nightwish could donate part of the revenue to the victims and their families. I don´t know what NIghtwish will do but have a feeling that the victims of the club fire will remembered in a way or another in the NW Bucharest concert.

 

In the end, I don´t want to argue about the interpretation of the  posts of the NW facebook administrators but express my sincere condolences to the suffering victims and relatives of the club fire. 

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Ok, so there are 2-5 posts of people who misunderstood, out of hundreds. A lot more posts of people explaining they understood the "morons" was refferring to to club owners, but that the message is still inappropriate. Ella Comaneanu talking about the idea of the message, not about the actual phrasing. You agree that the majority understood correctly. So why exactly are you bringing up the minority who misunderstood? How is that relevant and what does it do other than offend us some more when we're already offended enough?

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@angel_heart

 

My point is that people should differentiate opinions from facts and not spread untruthful information, when expressing their opinions. You said that "no one misunderstood anything" in post #1306, meaning that no Romanians misunderstood the posts on the NW facebook. I have shown that your claim is untruthful in post # 1307.

 

Your using of "we" (Romanians) instead of "I" also bothers me. Based on the fact that I found on the NW facebook (7 Nov 2015) about ten times Nightwish and/or their management supporting posts  compared to those blaming these, I am concluding that you are not representing the opinions of the majority of NW´s Romanian fans.  And even among those posts criticizing NW/their management were many from the same person, certain Simona Mihalca who kept on repeating how "we just wanted a message that doesn´t tell us to get over it." Perhaps you know her.   

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CRADLE OF FILTH would like to dedicate their concert tonight in Romania to the victims of the Colectiv nightclub fire in Bucharest in which forty five people, who attended a heavy metal show by the band Goodbye To Gravity, have died.

By way of paying respect, the band will not be using their current pyro system in the country, despite a successful and more importantly, totally safe show in which it was utilised in Budapest last night.

Our thoughts are with the families of all those who were injured or killed.

 

COF came up with this post and nothing else. No one asked them to postpone or cancel the show. No drama. No big deal. 

 

 

Fixed the quote. - Dandelion

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I think this story doesn't give anymore. It's nonsense. Everybody with a heart is sorry about this kind of tragedies, NW band members included. The original message was badly worded, that's clear, but the actual meaning was OK from the beginning and it was correct. There was a public apology for forms on the page and that's it. End of the story. Nobody has the right to monopolize the pain of people. The victims were not Romanians, they were just PEOPLE, and we all have the right to feel sorry about them, but nobody has the right to demonize other people just for a slip of the tongue. 

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Firstly, my sympathies to the friends and family of those who died or were injured in this fire.

 

Secondly, I would argue that it isn't demonising someone to observe that the management spectacularly messed up with their first post. The problem is not with the basic message - no, we're not cancelling the gig, our sympathies are with the people who died. That's fine. But the way it was initially worded made it sound really angry and defensive "So it is our fault? How could you be so naiive... Get real..." etc - like the main priority of this was that the band might be impacted in some way and people should be ashamed of themselves for thinking that way, inflaming an already sensitive situation. People are upset. People lost friends and family members. People are angry because of the circumstances surrounding the event. If some of those angry/ upset people were saying that the band should cancel their gig because of what happened, I can understand the management wanting to clarify for the fans attending the gig that it was definitely going ahead. But not this whole "How dare you! Don't be stupid!" attitude.

 

Look, sometimes where I work, customers will ring up to say that their partner/ spouse is dead, and they want their name taken off the correspondence from our company. Because they are hurting from the loss of a loved one and seeing their name appear on the post brings that up. Sometimes they're quite emotional, sometimes they're even snappy. But if anyone in our company responded to that, whether over the phone or by email or even on social media with "It's not MY fault your wife is dead! Get real." or similar words they would get a disciplinary or worse. On a professional level, because they're representing the company and giving said company a bad name. And on a personal level, because damn, utilise a bit of sympathy and patience, people. If you read a post saying something to the effect of "People we know have died. You should cancel/ postpone your concert" and your first reaction is indignation to the latter, rather than sympathy for the former, then at the very least, as a professional representing the band, you should be expected to stop and reread before you post.

 

Hell, even the management seemed to realise that they messed up, or why else would they have edited their wording and then made an additional post clarifying that the band themselves were not responsible for the posts. There's not really a lot they can do about it now- they've edited the post, they've expressed their sympathies, and hopefully they will take this on board as a learning moment, but I don't see why people were surprised that some fans were upset/ annoyed by the original post.

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@angel_heart

My point is that people should differentiate opinions from facts and not spread untruthful information, when expressing their opinions.

Trust me, I can differentiate opinions from facts. I made a wrong claim and said that no one misunderstood. I took it back, there were a couple of people who misunderstood, and I stand by the idea that their number was absolutely irrelevant compared to the way people reacted, like we ALL misunderstood instead of just a few people. You should also differentiate between opinions and inaccurate facts.

 

Your using of "we" (Romanians) instead of "I" also bothers me. Based on the fact that I found on the NW facebook (7 Nov 2015) about ten times Nightwish and/or their management supporting posts  compared to those blaming these, I am concluding that you are not representing the opinions of the majority of NW´s Romanian fans.

How 'bout the fact that the people posting on the Nw page (where btw, a lot of people have complained their posts have been edited or deleted, so I dare say it's not the most unbiased source of information) are just a handful? And that there are a lot more people complaining about this in the media or on the private page of the event or on other local forums. Trust me, most people are upset. Just accept that by living here, I might have acces to more information and a larger diversity of opinions about it than you, who are just counting posts on a Fb page.

 

 

 

The original message was badly worded, that's clear, but the actual meaning was OK from the beginning and it was correct.

 

Again, you are missing my point. I am disagreeing that it was just a slip a tongue, or that the original message was ok in meaning. As Himiko said, the problem is when instead of having sympathy for someone's grief, you're more busy being pissed off that hey, maybe people aren't exactly highly rational when grieving (who would've thought). It doesn't even matter how they worded the message (or it does, from a PR point of view, but I guess we already established they suck at it), it matters that their first thought was "how dare you random stranger on the internet tell me what to do" instead of "wow, I'm sorry for these people".

 

I am not demonising them for it (demonising would be to go into a crusade of "let's boycott the show in Romania, let's boycott the band, let's never buy anything from them again". I'm still thinking of going to the show, but don't worry, there are plenty of people who would like to boycott the show, I guess winterheart hasn't read about those). I am not monopolising the pain, I am first and foremost presenting MY pain, which happens to correspond to the pain of a lot many others. *I* lost people in that fire, *I* have friends who are still struggling for life, *I* am pissed off, *I* am offended. Trust me, there's plenty more pain and being offended to go around, so much that I couldn't possibly monopolise it. In the end, no matter the nationality of the people that died (they weren't only Romanians anyway), it still happened in *our* country. It changed *our* life. It promted *us* to go into the streets and protest and cause *our* government to fall. It's *our* system that allowed it and the system *we* are living in. It isn't just some deaths, it's... you know what, I can't do this. You couldn't possibly understand what this means for us, for me, and how deep this whole thing goes and the fact that you're more busy defending a band (just a freaking band) instead of showing the slightest amount of respect and simpathy and you're acting like I'm the evil one, demonising these poor little people... just go on with your confessions about dreaming Tuomas and how you wish to marry Emppu one day because it's clear for me why some of your are defending the band right now - because you're just as compassionless and ignorrant as they proved to be.

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Well, the fact is that your comments are more offensive, insensitive and agressive towards the band and some forum members than the comments you are criticising. Ah, and nobody is defending the band or their management, we all have said the tone of the comment was inappropriate and that they should be more careful about it, but I think there's a limit, a borderline that shouldn't be surpassed and, sorry to say it, you have surpassed it.

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