Nocturna

Game of Thrones

397 posts in this topic

Yeah, I live in Germany for the last couple of years, it is more difficult to get your hands on anything without paying the big buck, so I usually wait till I come to Russia once or twice a year.

Oh and I forgot, Bran definitely got super weird in the latest season, which I guess is only to be expected, since he is no longer human. I guess being able to see into the past and future will do that to you.

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I gave up with the books halfway through...whichever one is so dull and half the characters have disappeared...and have now finally watched to the end of series 2!  It is great and I'm looking forward to borrowing the next boxset...love Tyrion, he's such a great character!!

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Season 2, oh man, you got so much ahead of you :)

And well, you know the first rule of the GoT club - you don't talk about the GoT club you don't get attached to the characters...

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Moreover, you have to be careful when it comes to choose a favourite character. There is a big chance that they might end up dead. And prepare yourself for a lot of pain to come. I love the series dearly but it tends to bring me to tears every now and then. Apart from that, it is April and no new Game of Thrones episodes... it will be a long, long year.

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Before I (we) forget ... we must thank the entire production team for their work which often is not at all easy.

Season 8 Just Finished Filming the Longest Battle Shoot in Game of Thrones History! (URL)

Jonathan-Quinlan-Season-8-Winterfell-Bat

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Longest battle shoot in history? I wonder what battle that is. I can hardly wait to finally watch the new season though I'm still sad that it will be last. The question is how many people will be alive in the end and will they be able to defeat the Night King.

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Serously, people, what´s with all dissing of the book series? Sure, I am annoyed as hell with GRRM that he seems to be doing everything else but writing The Winds of Winter, but still, I find that since he ceased his direct involvement in the TV series, the show took a big down turn in terms of smartness of plot, dialogues and logic. Don´t even get me started on all the cheap and illogical plot turns in the latest season. And I will never forgive the directors for completely wasting the potential of Rickon´s character, I mean seriously, what the hell was that about? So, yeah, I am of course looking forward to the last season, but for me the books will always be the ultimate canon. 

BTW, one spin-off will see a pilot at least, it will deal with the Long Night. 

P.S. 

Count me in for the Cercei team. She is by far the most deserving of ruling the realm. Don´t believe all that hypocritical Daeneris´ privileged white woman propaganda bs. 

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I don't get the hate that Martin isn't finishing the books either. I don't feel like he owes anything, he'll finish them when he can and if he never does, that's his choice. Some people seem to think that just because an artist produces something for the world, that means that the world has rights over that thing. 

 

As for teams, I've been Dany team since book one and I like her character more and more as time goes by. To me she's the perfect ruler and her&Jon would be the perfect royal family (for Westeros, I mean). 

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On 7/14/2018 at 2:39 PM, angel_heart said:

I don't get the hate that Martin isn't finishing the books either. I don't feel like he owes anything, he'll finish them when he can and if he never does, that's his choice. Some people seem to think that just because an artist produces something for the world, that means that the world has rights over that thing. 

 

As for teams, I've been Dany team since book one and I like her character more and more as time goes by. To me she's the perfect ruler and her&Jon would be the perfect royal family (for Westeros, I mean). 

Well, he definitelly does not OWE anything to anybody but himself or the people to whom he is contractually obliged. Yet, as a total outsider to his life and a random person idling his time on a random metal band's forum, I do find it unprofessional from the author's point of view that he takes so many side projects on himself, instead of really focusing on finishing first the very book series that made him famous and that majority of his readers actually care about. Sure, he might have grown tired or bored with it, and does not even plan on finishing it, and that is his right, as it is my or anybody else's right to perceive such attitude as unprofessional, and something that is only possible because he got filthy rich in the meantime and does not need to answer to publishers or editors or employers. 

To me Dany and Jon were always too Disney-esque perfect goody-two-shoes kind of characters. They are obvious winners and ultimate heroes, and that's why I guess I would find them as ultimate winners of the game too obvious an ending. Not to mention that bigger part of their significance comes from their genetic inheritance, rather than from their own actions. 

On the other hand, Cercei did achieve what little she has with her own strength and ambition, without any supernatural powers or aid (at lest in the books as of yet). I find the way they portrayed her character in the shows very shallow and one-sided (althout the books are not much better in that regard either). Not to mention all hypocrisy surrounding how she is being judged by other characters, and I dare say readers and viewers as well. When Targaryens do incest, it is fine, whe Cercei does it, it is abomination. When she plots and murders people, she gets called a monster, unlike certain other girl who burns people with dragonflame. She got to be the most powerful person in the realm despite being a woman, and thus a priori a lesser being in that world. She is a native Westerosi who, although perhaps not the most gentle and far-sighted ruler ever, does not bring an armada of foreign invaders and supernatural monsters to the realm to claim the throne just because that someone's father used to hold it before becoming an insane inbred moron. 

If Cercei ends up being the Mad Queen or some sort of Night Queen (which is for the show very probable, and perhaps even for the books), I would find a very wasted potential to portray a truly strong-willed and determined, if short-sighted and self-obsessed female character, a epic-fantasy version of Scarlett O'Hara, if you will. 

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concerning Martin: I don't follow everything he occupies his time with, so I can't say if he's unprofessional or not. I also don't think that time is all you need to put in to be able to finish a book, sometimes no matter how much you try, inspiration refuses to come. I would rather he takes his time and writes something he can be proud of and I can enjoy, instead of just forcing himself to write something mediocre just so he can say he finished the books. 

concerning Dany&Jon: I'll give you that Jon is a bit golden-boy-ish for this story (although he's very much Ned's son in education and he is following in his footsteps and mistakes), but I don't think Dany is a goody-two-shoes character at all. She has her ruthless streak, she's vengeful, lustful, entitled and sometimes shallow, she definitely has her share of flaws and is far from being the Disney princess. What I like about her is that she has good intentions and is aware of her flaws and struggling to correct them. She's one of the most self-aware and introspective characters of the book and one of the few that second guesses herself and listens to others. 

concerning Cersei: I'm not sure how serious you are about what you wrote, but Cersei's main problem isn't even that she's ruthless or that she sleeps with Jaime, it's that she's very very stupid. It never once crosses her mind that other people might have plans and ideas too, she makes her plans for a perfect battleground where she is the only one moving pieces and forgets that while she plots, others make moves as well or react to her moves and that will change the situation she planned for. She's a poor strategist and refuses to listen to anyone or consider that she's not the only smart person in the world. Also, since you brought up her relation with Jaime, in my eyes the thing that makes it a lot more disturbing than the incest (which I can accept that takes place in a world where it's not such a big deal) is how she loves him because he's her reflection with the only thing she ever wanted (a penis), and only as long as he is that reflection. She is so in love with herself that the only people she ever cares for are her spitting image and those that came out directly of her and the spitting image. in any way, I find Cersei quite fascinating even if I don't root for her, I enjoy reading about her and trying to understand her and interpret her motivations. To me that's the mark of a good villain. 

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Cersei is definitely a fascinating villain. I think her main problem is not only that she's no strategist, it's also that she's sadistic and egoistic. She enjoys getting revenge, seeing people she hates getting hurt. Dany on the other hand, while making stupid decisions, is no sadist. She definitely needs to be put in place from time to time, hopefully Varys and Tyrion will manage that, but for a teenager, her IQ and emotional intellect is quite remarkable. I don't get her motivation in wanting the Seven Kingdoms either, and don't even get me started on the whole Bend the Knee business, I mean really, they tried to convince Cersei that no matter the allegiance, the White Walkers will get everyone, and still Dany herself is like "Imma not gonna help ya, if you don't bend the knee" (I'm not mixing it up right? It was more or less like that or am I imagining things?). But with Dany I got hope, she got brains to listen to Tyrion and Varys, but Cersei, she won't even listen to Jamie, let alone anyone else.

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I can give you both that Cercei is definitely way too stubborn and lacks a far-sighted strategic thinking. However, when comparing her to Daeneris, was there really anybody who could truly help her and on whose advice she could truly rely? Daeneris had a whole host of devoted advisers, completely devoted to her, even more so in the TV show. Whom does Cercei have? Either lickspittles trying to suck up to the crown (and she is aware of it), or incompetent bureaucrats, or people who apparently want her either out of game altogether or to make as many mistakes as possible. Why Dany had Jorah, all those Essosi people, Missandei, + Tyrion and Varis, Cercei had, well, Varys and Littlefinger who deliberately influenced her to do crazy things, and Kevan Lannister who saw only abomination in her sex life. Or Qyburn, whom I guess she does not trust too much either. Even Jaime, with all his positive emotions towards her, was away for the better part of the plot, and arguably is not too strategic in his thinking either. In the end, the only person who really had positive effect on her as a ruler and would bring her benefit was Tyrion, but yeah, pathological childhood trauma eventually had the better of her. 

Although both Dany and Cercei were basically "sold" to their husbands, the former eventually found her man to be loving and supporting brute, whereas the latter did not have that luck. 

And don't get me started on that "Bend the knee" thing in the latest season. Why should she, or anyone else in Westeros, bend the knee to Daeneris? Because her whacko father used to rule the land once long ago, burning people at his whim, until those people got sick of it and killed him? Sorry Dany, your claim is really shaky, and not even those three fire-breathing pets of yours cannot make it better. 

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Dany's claim is not any stronger than Cersei's, they both have the right to rule for different reasons, and they both feel very entitled concerning that right. The difference that Dany actually wants to be a good ruler and help her people, despite of her arrogance, while I have never seen an ounce of selflessness coming from Cersei. 

As far as advisers go, I would argue that each of them surrounded herself with the advisers that suited them. Dany inspired smart and honorable people to join her and stay by her side and encouraged them to speak their mind, while Cersei deliberately pushed away everyone that had different opinions or that she felt as a threat. For example Cersei could've had Ned if she hadn't been a bitch to him since the first moment they met. Who knows, he might've actually helped her by hiding the incest if he had any reason to like her or trust her, it wouldn't have been the first time he lied to protect people he cared about. She also could've kept Barristan and Tyrion on her side, made an ally of Olenna or whomever she chose, had she inspired a modicum of devotion or respect from anyone. But she chose slimy people like Qyburn or Blount who would do the questionable things she asked without much inner conflict, or morons like Pycelle and the Kettlebacks. She even manages to push away that one person that truly cared about her, she could've had an army of smart able and loyal councilors and she would've created issues for every one of them.

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Well, you do have a point there, although I still see all these able people flocking to the heiress of incestuous dragon-taming dynasty more connected to precisely those assets of hers, rather than Daeneris' personal qualities, esp. in the first couple of seasons/books. 

And I actually also regret that GRRM kind of wasted the chance to make a really nuanced portrayal of Cercei in the books.. Although she is much less of a villain there than in the shows, she is still a villain, and I have problems with that. It just makes the whole constellation of forces more black and white than this otherwise exquisite plot deserves. 

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Looking back on the show and comparing it to the books, I feel that the show really failed the character of Shae. In the book she was a prostitute who was paid by Tyrion to act as a girlfriend. She did and he rewarded her with isolating her, killing her only friend and turning him into stew and then killing her because she humiliated him. Compare this to Bronn who was also a paid companion and didn't stick up for Tyrion during the trial but no one cares about that. Tyrion treated her horribly and I wouldn't be surprised if she actually hated him, which is what many sex workers feel towards their clients. He had no regards for her feelings. He saw her as an object there to feed his need to be attractive to women. He even risked her life because he got off on the danger of being caught! 

The show however completely disregarded the logic in Shae's actions and made her into some sort of Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman who had found her Richard Gere but then  for some reason betrayed him. It makes me think that they either didn't care about keeping the logic of the book-Shae or that they didn't get that paid love does not equal love, paid consent does not equal consent and that a poor woman who doesn't have any options would choose survival over loyalty to a man who treated her badly. Or they chose to make her look worse so that Tyrion would look better in comparison. 

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On 11/10/2018 at 8:50 AM, Nocturnal Queen said:

Looking back on the show and comparing it to the books, I feel that the show really failed the character of Shae. In the book she was a prostitute who was paid by Tyrion to act as a girlfriend. She did and he rewarded her with isolating her, killing her only friend and turning him into stew and then killing her because she humiliated him. Compare this to Bronn who was also a paid companion and didn't stick up for Tyrion during the trial but no one cares about that. Tyrion treated her horribly and I wouldn't be surprised if she actually hated him, which is what many sex workers feel towards their clients. He had no regards for her feelings. He saw her as an object there to feed his need to be attractive to women. He even risked her life because he got off on the danger of being caught! 

The show however completely disregarded the logic in Shae's actions and made her into some sort of Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman who had found her Richard Gere but then  for some reason betrayed him. It makes me think that they either didn't care about keeping the logic of the book-Shae or that they didn't get that paid love does not equal love, paid consent does not equal consent and that a poor woman who doesn't have any options would choose survival over loyalty to a man who treated her badly. Or they chose to make her look worse so that Tyrion would look better in comparison. 

Haven't got this far yet, and I love Tyrion so really want to keep believing that he's a decent chap.....

Last week I thoroughly enjoyed watching the hideous young King get his well-deserved comeuppance on his wedding day though:clap:

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so ... we got the first teaser GoT ... all digital imagery

 

Edited by ish

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I am curious what they come up with in this last season. The previous one seemed quite predictable compared with the unexpected twists and turns of the earlier seasons and the books... Not exactly what I would have expected from GRRM. (No wonder he stuggles to finish the series. :P) I'm the most interested in how that valonquar prophecy will play out. That one I wouldn't mind to be the predictable version. 

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On 11/10/2018 at 9:50 AM, Nocturnal Queen said:

Looking back on the show and comparing it to the books, I feel that the show really failed the character of Shae. In the book she was a prostitute who was paid by Tyrion to act as a girlfriend. She did and he rewarded her with isolating her, killing her only friend and turning him into stew and then killing her because she humiliated him. Compare this to Bronn who was also a paid companion and didn't stick up for Tyrion during the trial but no one cares about that. Tyrion treated her horribly and I wouldn't be surprised if she actually hated him, which is what many sex workers feel towards their clients. He had no regards for her feelings. He saw her as an object there to feed his need to be attractive to women. He even risked her life because he got off on the danger of being caught! 

The show however completely disregarded the logic in Shae's actions and made her into some sort of Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman who had found her Richard Gere but then  for some reason betrayed him. It makes me think that they either didn't care about keeping the logic of the book-Shae or that they didn't get that paid love does not equal love, paid consent does not equal consent and that a poor woman who doesn't have any options would choose survival over loyalty to a man who treated her badly. Or they chose to make her look worse so that Tyrion would look better in comparison. 

I just think that the way how the Shae/Tyrion relationship has been portrayed in the TV series is more "viewership/Hollywood"-friendly. Game of Thrones is unique in the most possible ways. It is shocking and fights "TV series" stereotypes but I guess that the producers didn't want to get rid off each and every "common pattern" of TV series structures/plots. 
Tyrion is like the only truly good guy (together with Snow), I guess the producers didn't want to change that & people are still up for some romance and poetic justice.

However, 
I would love to see Game of Thrones going fully nuts and crown Sansa as the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms in the end, haha.

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It looks like Sansa is not very pleased to have Dany in Winterfell. Which is understandable because she propably sees in Dany the daughter of the Mad King and doesn't really trust her. I'm more than curious how this scene will continue and what will happen if Jon gets to know the truth about his parents. Can it not be April already?!

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In the words of Catelyn Stark to Bran (season 1) ... "You always look at your feet before you lie"

:)

New teaser (this one seems filmed for promo purposes only) (if it's actual footage, then we have a problem)

 

Edited by ish
new content

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