Nocturna

Game of Thrones

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So excited for the new season although I'm also sad that it is the last one. At least there will be spin offs. And I still have some hopes for the last two books to be released one day. But I fear that will only happen when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. :ermm:

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3 days! I can't wait!

So I saw that and I immediately thought "How awesome would that be if they had asked european metal bands to do that". 

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Just finished watching ep. 1 on Hbo Go. Not mindblowing ... it's (almost) peaceful and quiet.

There is a new intro , and I confess I'm worried about the image at 0:54 and intrigued by the one at 1:33.

 

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Am I the only one who thinks the new season continues the previous one's disastrous writing? It does not even have to do with "keeping true to the books" (which don't exist anyway), but merely having some remote logic in plot, dialogues and character development. 

Spoiler

 

-Bran is just sitting in the middle of the courtyard like an apparition. Although he interrupts the reunion scene at the beginning of the episode, he then lets all of them scrabble for the whole episode about Jon bending the knee to Daeneris. 

-The dragon joyride is as cringeworthy as it gets, I mean, since when is this series become teenage rom-com. The dialogues between them - trainwreck. Not to mention that Daeneris does not seem the least puzzled that a bastard from north is able to ride a dragon, a trait that is supposedly only reserved for people of dragonlord blood. And it takes Davos to suggest to Tyrion and Varys, master schemers, that the whole conflict between Targaryens and Starks could be solved by a political marriage, and no one takes that option seriously. To me the whole romance between John and Daeneris felt forced and unnecessarily cheesy, they could have just arranged a political marriage already in the last season, and eventually fall in love, if the writers really wanted to appease teenage fans. 

 

 

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@Baki 

Honestly. :P I agree about the political marriage as well, even Cersei and Euron are -supposedly- going to get married, but Jon and Daenarys, with the stakes being much higher, the White Walkers closing in and everyone bickering about his title, are going on day trips and whatnot. Ugh.

And that stupid Tormund joke that everyone loved, as if his blue eyes (that you can't even make out their colour in the dark) are even remotely close to the wight/White Walker blue. 

Anyway, I missed it and even though it was a slow start, I'm so excited about the next episodes, hopefully they are going to make up for it. I'm loving all the memes it created, too. :P

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I live for Game of Thrones memes :P

And yes, it was weird how they were going on trips and whatnot, but on the other hand, we saw Gendry making dragonglass weapons and the armies were probably getting ready. Also, winterfell is small, it's not like they have to say you will be there and you will be waiting for the WWs there and so on. They are basically just waiting for them to come to them.

Also, I don't care about Sam's father and brother. There I said it :P It is a war as they've said countless of times. Randyll was a terrible man who threatened to kill Sam, betrayed Olenna who he knew and served for centuries and went along with Cersei, who is basically the mad queen. So, yeah, sorry, I just don't care.

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No, I'm just saying that instead of going on trips, they could've gotten married. Or at least they could get married first and then go on a trip. :P Basically everyone was yapping about how he kind of broke their trust by giving up his title and bringing her there. A marriage would make it clearer that they are actually united and that Jon isn't her concubine.

Yeah, I agree about Sam's father and brother. I was actually a bit surprised when he almost started crying. His reaction would've been more justified if she'd killed his mother and sister, that were decent human beings and loved and treated him as they should've. 

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He was upset because of his brother, not that much because of Randyll. 

I don't care about them either, but it was just a dumb plothole that Jorah would not warn her beforehand that she burned the family of his saviour. 

Daeneris did not blink an eye at the news that one of her "children" is now a zombie, but goes on an excursion with her boyfriend. Her BF gets on the dragon and rides it (coupled with ultimate cheese of a dialogue), although that was the prerogative of Valyrian dragonlords only, and neither Daeneris nor anyone else blinks an eye at that miracle, or starts wondering about his actual heritage.

I don't even have any idea what's the purpose of characters like Davos or Varys this late in the story. 

Sure, I am happy that I will see the conclusion of the whole story, even in such a crippled state, and the show has never looked better, the cast is mostly fantastic as usual, but it just irks me so much that almost all characters now seem ten times more stupid and uninteresting than 7 seasons ago. And it does not even have to do with previous seasons following the books, you can write a decent script even if you are not George Martin. 

 

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Yes, but he didn't have much of a relationship with his brother either. I guess they just needed something to push him to reveal to Jon that he's the heir to the throne. 

I don't really remember there being a rule regarding who can ride a dragon. I thought it was more like if the dragon likes you then you can ride it, if not then bye. Maybe she thought that because she's close to Jon, the dragons will be ok with him riding them?!

I'm not gonna lie, I'm slightly grateful for the sloppy screenwriting, because it makes me long for the next books so much more. Like, I don't even care if all the events will be the same (which they won't be), I NEED the books so I can get actual insight and the depth of GRRM's intricate storytelling and characterization. As you said, I'm just pleased that the visual and acting aspects are close to perfection and that I get to see how the story will end. 

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On 4/16/2019 at 11:24 AM, Baki said:

Am I the only one who thinks the new season continues the previous one's disastrous writing? It does not even have to do with "keeping true to the books" (which don't exist anyway), but merely having some remote logic in plot, dialogues and character development. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

-Bran is just sitting in the middle of the courtyard like an apparition. Although he interrupts the reunion scene at the beginning of the episode, he then lets all of them scrabble for the whole episode about Jon bending the knee to Daeneris. 

-The dragon joyride is as cringeworthy as it gets, I mean, since when is this series become teenage rom-com. The dialogues between them - trainwreck. Not to mention that Daeneris does not seem the least puzzled that a bastard from north is able to ride a dragon, a trait that is supposedly only reserved for people of dragonlord blood. And it takes Davos to suggest to Tyrion and Varys, master schemers, that the whole conflict between Targaryens and Starks could be solved by a political marriage, and no one takes that option seriously. To me the whole romance between John and Daeneris felt forced and unnecessarily cheesy, they could have just arranged a political marriage already in the last season, and eventually fall in love, if the writers really wanted to appease teenage fans. 

 

 

Noooo , you are not alone ... 
I could have tolerated Jon's dragon-ride later on, perhaps during the battle against the Night King, like a last resort of some sort (and definitely after finding out he is half Targaryen). And what fate for Ghost then ? (although, like some people pointed out some time ago ... direwolves offscreen means they are still alive).

The dialogues are not interesting at all (compared to the first seasons) ... and this takes a toll on the actors (Cersei's stupid talk about elephants and the whole Cersei-Euron scene ... ewwww)

At this point I think the producers/writers took inspiration from the fans' ideas (the tranformation of a dragon into a WW etc.) and their jokes.

These are funny ... and spot on :)       https://www.boredpanda.com/season-8-premiere-game-of-thrones-got-memes/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

Edited by ish

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Yeah the Cersei and Euron scene was ew for various reasons. It was weird it even happened.

As for the Daenerys-Jon-dragons thing, I do believe it was best to see this scene now than later on. If amidst the huge battle, Jon were to casually ride Rhaegal without having done it before, it would be way out of the blue and I don't think I'd like that. Now we saw them in a calm environment where Jon gains its trust and learns how to actually ride him. Also, I believe Daenerys just thinks that "Well, they are my children, they know I trust Jon, so they trust him too." She is kind of arrogant in that way (not saying it in a bad way exactly).

Ghost will definitely appear later on. But I do wonder if Nymeria will too.

I do agree that the dialogue is worse than the first seasons. However, I think this has more to do with the fact that the first seasons were more dialogue-driven, people were scheming and conspiring and discussing strategies, while now it's way more action-driven, full of battles and chases and so on.

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32 minutes ago, Imagineer said:

I do agree that the dialogue is worse than the first seasons. However, I think this has more to do with the fact that the first seasons were more dialogue-driven, people were scheming and conspiring and discussing strategies, while now it's way more action-driven, full of battles and chases and so on.

Except that in episodes like the last one, there was hardly any action, and yet they succeeded to ruin it with stupid one-liners (how many testicle-jokes we need with Varys) and illogical interactions. 

BTW, is Cercei still pregnant in the show, or it was implied she miscarried when she had that desperate expression after Euron touched her belly? Anyways, I am still rooting for her, although I know it's a lost cause. Better her than wannabe white saviour with freaky mass-murdering pets. 

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Yeah, I was talking about the last couple of seasons in general. I still don't think it's that bad though (and yes, I've read all books before seeing the show and think they are better than the show, but still)

What? Why would anyone root for Cersei? She is literally the worst and the last person I'd wanna see on the throne (well maybe except for Euron :P ). Daenerys for the win!

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Because, despite all her obvious mistakes, deficiencies and vices, she is still the most humane and relateable of all the main contenders, unlike the goodie-two-shoes Jombie, or the foreign invader with fire-breathing pets who thinks she owns the throne because her insane father used to hold it. All the while pretending she's not evil nor arrogant while burning people for not bending the knee, or blackmailing the North with help against the Others for bending the knee. I cannot understand how people tend to think it was badass of Daeneris to burn down the Dothraki capital, but Cercei is mad and evil for burning down a sept full of lunatic priests and hypocritical nobles. Both of them had abusive husbands, but Robert eventually proved a worse partner. Oh, and nobody blinks at Targaryen incest, whereas Lannister incest is a no-go. 

I can see that Daeneris or Jon will end up on the throne, but to me it is a rather boring/predictable/shallow outcome, at least if we are to judge how all these characters developed in the show. 

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When did Daenerys burn down the Dothraki capital? She burned down one building with a few khals who were going to kill her or imprison her. And she gave a much better life to the women of the Dothraki too, while also uniting the different Dothraki tribes. On the other hand Cersei executed the lunatic priests (who were indeed lunatic and I was more than happy to see die). Who were the hypocritical nobles? The Tyrells? Margaery was definitely one of the best characters, the other Tyrells were mostly good and the sept was also full of random nobles we know nothing about. Random civilians of Kings Landing died as well. I really see no point of comparison between these two events. Also, if Daenerys blackmailed the North with help fpr the Other, it only happened in the beginning of her acquaintance with Jon. She didn't agree to help the North because Jon bend the knee. That happened after she agreed. She did it because she saw the army of the dead and came to realize that the threat is real and it wasn't just a ploy by Jon, which was what she believed in the beginning, since the White Walkers were only a myth before.

On the other hand, Cersei killed her husband (who was a terrible king, true), tried to kill Tyrion just because he existed (I mean before Joffrey's death, but even after, she didn't even give him the benefit of the doubt), killed countless others, imprisoned Margaery just because she didn't like her,  promised a truce that she was not going to keep true to and basically she even betrayed Jamie's trust. As for the incest, I don't really think people have a problem with it nowadays, I personally don't. But still, the two cases are completely different. Cersei and Jamie grew up together and were fully aware of what was happening, while Jon and Daenerys literally just met and they both had no way of knowing what was happening.

I do believe that, as you say, Cersei is humane and relatable to a certain degree, and I like her as the bad guy. She is a fully fledged character and not just a superficial villain who wants dominion over everyone. But in the "Is Daenerys really better than Cersei" question you set, for me the answer is always 100% yes.

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7 hours ago, Imagineer said:

She burned down one building with a few khals who were going to kill her or imprison her.

Arguably, she destroyed the symbol of Dothraki culture. And I give her that that she united all those tribes, but we do not know really how much they benefited from that, because we do not see how Dothraki people (esp. women) fare in Westeros, strange and cold land. 

7 hours ago, Imagineer said:

Who were the hypocritical nobles? The Tyrells? Margaery was definitely one of the best characters, the other Tyrells were mostly good and the sept was also full of random nobles we know nothing about. 

The Tyrells proved to be as scheming, lecherous and power-hungry as the Lannisters, but their schemes were always shown in positive light. Cercei did not have Marg imprisoned because she didn't like her, but because she through she was taking hold of her son, and even endangering the position of her family in general. However, allying with priests was a dumb idea to fight that, sure. And the nobles? Nah, burning them with dragonfire or with wildfire, potato, potato. 

7 hours ago, Imagineer said:

As for the incest, I don't really think people have a problem with it nowadays, I personally don't.

The whole Westeros apparently does, judging by how Cercei and Jaime had to hide their relationship, unlike any Targaryen ever. 

8 hours ago, Imagineer said:

I do believe that, as you say, Cersei is humane and relatable to a certain degree, and I like her as the bad guy. She is a fully fledged character and not just a superficial villain who wants dominion over everyone.

She has become the main antagonist if you root for Starks or Targaryens, but her villainy is masterfully explained and developed and rationalised (even better in the show than in the books), while Daeneris has remained a rather shallow positive character (who keeps getting more shallow with the recent seasons'  bad scripts) who thinks is entitled to a continent with which she has no tangible connection except that her ancestors ruled it. She should have stayed in Essos which she conquered with her own hands, and the life of whose people she arguably improved, and let Westeros be. Of all that talk about "breaking the wheel", you'd think she would plan to make a Socialist Federal Republic of Westeros (that's be fun, lol), but instead she just keeps nagging about bending the knee. Well, good job for breaking the wheel, sister. 

Oh, and BTW, Daeneris had a hand in killing her brother, at least indirectly. 

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Sure, the Tyrells were power hungry. But not in the same way as Cersei. Marg may have wanted power but deep down she was good and would have been a much better queen to her people had she become one. I doubt Loras was power hungry though, and their father was stupid as hell, but still not really a bad person.

I thought you were talking about viewers having a problem with the incest. Well, how can the people of Westeros have a problem with the Dany/Jon incest if they don’t know about it? :P They probably will, once they find out. Even Jon probably will.

And are you talking about the brother who treated Daenerys as scum and sold her as a slave? Yes, she did had a hand in his death. Why wouldn’t she?

You May think that Daenerys is not the the right ruler of Westeros for whatever reason, but your argument is lost the minute you compare her to Cersei, who some would say  is even more evil than the Night King. 

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1 hour ago, Imagineer said:

Sure, the Tyrells were power hungry. But not in the same way as Cersei. Marg may have wanted power but deep down she was good and would have been a much better queen to her people had she become one. I doubt Loras was power hungry though, and their father was stupid as hell, but still not really a bad person.

But was she good deep down? I mean, do we know that as the viewers? Her care for smallfolk seems all but feigned in the show, her seduction of Tommen was hardly motivated by true love, it's questionable if she had been virgin or chaste even before getting married. Sure, she was not depicted as murderously as Cercei, because she had her grandma and Littlefinger do the dirty work for her. True, Loras was not power-hungry, but again, show-Loras has been as dimensional fitness-queen as any, totally wasted stereotypical "gay" character. 

2 hours ago, Imagineer said:

 I thought you were talking about viewers having a problem with the incest. Well, how can the people of Westeros have a problem with the Dany/Jon incest if they don’t know about it? :P They probably will, once they find out. Even Jon probably will.

 

I'm not talking about Jon and Daeneris, but about their ancestors, who had been inbreeding while ruling Westeros for 300 years, and nobody dared oppose them. Yet when Lannisters do the same, they have to conceal it lest they be charged for blasphemy and whatnot. Hypocrisy much. 

2 hours ago, Imagineer said:

 And are you talking about the brother who treated Daenerys as scum and sold her as a slave? Yes, she did had a hand in his death. Why wouldn’t she?

 

Same goes for Cercei killing families which harmed her children (Tyrells and Martells). Why wouldn't she? 

2 hours ago, Imagineer said:

You May think that Daenerys is not the the right ruler of Westeros for whatever reason, but your argument is lost the minute you compare her to Cersei, who some would say  is even more evil than the Night King. 

Not really. Cercei is not a mindless annihilating ice zombie, but a slightly deranged woman whose mind has been twisted by being denigrated her whole life for being a woman, being denied her only remotely true love, being married to an abusive husband, being disappointed in her oldest child, having her favourite child ruthlessly assassinated, being raped within a sept by her supposed love of her life by her son's grave, being marooned by her youngest child, and being publically shamed and abandoned by hypocritical court. Far better than an arctic killing machine. 

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I for once know that Marg would not hate her brother just for being born and she wouldn't try to execute him a bunch of times just for existing. But have it your way then, let's say that Marg and Olenna deserved to die (for killing the worst king that ever existed). I still don't get what you are saying about the civilians of Kings Landing. Yes, they humiliated Cersei. And? I don't see how you see Daenerys killing the handful of Khals who held her as a prisoner and would either rape or kill her or both as a crime, but you don't see Cersei murdering a huge number of civilians as a bad thing. Oh, also, remember when Cersei killed a bunch of infants and young boys just because they were Robert's bastards?

All the things that happened to Cersei that you mentioned are the things that make her a fully fledged character and a lot of these have made me personally feel bad for her, definitely. There were moments when I was  on the side of Cersei and not on the people opposite her. The sparrows absolutely deserved their fate and Ellaria Sand did too, she was a terrible person who basically killed Myrcella because Oberyn was too arrogant. Still, the Night King is exactly that, a killing machine who kills everyone and everything on his way. Cersei makes you think she is on your side and then betrays you, murders you, or tries to execute you to get what she wants, no matter if you are her brother, husband, lover, etc.

What has Daenerys done wrong exactly? She freed a bunch of slaves, united the Dothraki (and yes, we haven't seen how they act now, but we know Daenerys would not allow them to rape their women, or imprison them just because their husbands died, etc) and she is generally as just as she can be. The people she has by her side, like Tyrion and Jorah are people she trusts and people she always takes advice from, and she has never betrayed anyone afaik, except for the people who mistreated her. And yes, she does believe that she is the true heir to the Iron Throne, since not only did Robert stole the throne, but he is now dead along with all his ancestors and both brothers and Cersei sits on the throne (btw, like Daenerys, Cersei also didn't ask anyone in the seven kingdoms if they wanted her as the Queen, she offered them the chance of either bending the knee or dying). She has accumulated more power than Cersei, she is just to the people around her and her subservients, and if they had known her, most people would obviously prefer her to Cersei. Growing up in a foreign land wasn't her choice, it was the only way she would survive, and now she is back to claim what is rightfullly hers.

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34 minutes ago, Imagineer said:

still don't get what you are saying about the civilians of Kings Landing. Yes, they humiliated Cersei. And? I don't see how you see Daenerys killing the handful of Khals who held her as a prisoner and would either rape or kill her or both as a crime, but you don't see Cersei murdering a huge number of civilians as a bad thing.

Were there any civilians (small folk) within the sept when it exploded? I had the impression it was only sparrows and present nobles who came there in hope to jeer at the fallen queens. 

Of course I do not see it as a good thing, this isn't the question of morality, I personally would never vote for anyone of those people if they would run for elections, I think one of the few things in ASOIAF universe that is a given is that no character is good and blameless. I take it thus as a given that you do not consider burning people with dragonfire a good thing only because Daeneris does it. I just see Cercei's reasoning behind vile acts more grounded and "justified" (in cognitive, not ethical sense) than behind many of other characters' acts. Plus, I am all for human agency in the series, and the less magic the better. Hence, I am much more inclined to root for a character who came to power through shrewdness and political/military scheming rather than Deus ex Machina  plot resolution with help of magical pets (ok, zombie Mountain, I admit, but still). 

42 minutes ago, Imagineer said:

Oh, also, remember when Cersei killed a bunch of infants and young boys just because they were Robert's bastards?

I remember well, it was ordered by Joffrey, not Cercei? 

43 minutes ago, Imagineer said:

btw, like Daenerys, Cersei also didn't ask anyone in the seven kingdoms if they wanted her as the Queen, she offered them the chance of either bending the knee or dying

Exactly, they are the same in that regard. . But Daeneris' insistence on everyone bending the knee is generally seen as righteous (because dragons) while Cercei doing the same thing is shown as usurpation. 

 

45 minutes ago, Imagineer said:

Ellaria Sand did too, she was a terrible person who basically killed Myrcella because Oberyn was too arrogant.

So true. The Dorne part of the story was probably the worst link in the chain. 

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I definitely agree that no person in ASOIAF is 100% good or bad. On the good-bad scale, Daenerys is definitely not on the far left side and Cersei is not on the far right side either. But Daenerys is on the good side (although there are definitely characters who are "better" than her, like Jon probably) and Cersei is on the bad side.

And I don't just justify everything Daenerys does because dragons. She hadn't even used the dragons that much before season 7. The fire in the Dothraki camp was her doing. And I do justify it. Also, I would feel exactly the same if she had asked the Dothraki to execute the Tarlys, instead of having Drogon burn them alive.

Also, people don't just support Daenery's claims because of the dragons, they do it because she would be a way better ruler than Cersei, who doesn't give an f about her subordinates and basically anyone except for herself at this point (something which as you said is justifiable to a certain degree). If Cersei was the one who had the dragons, but her story was exactly the same in all other regards, people (and by that I mean the viewers) would still not want her on the throne, nor would they justify the burning of the Sept because she would have used her dragons instead of wildfire. Basically, the huge monstrous dragons are seen as "good characters" exactly because Daenerys is good and for instance, she didn't just fly to Kings Landing to burn down all her enemies and take the crown, as Cersei would have done in her place. If the dragons were Cersei's they would be seen as monsters that everyone would want dead.

You' re right about the bastards in Kings Landing, it was Joffrey who gave the order. (Although it was Cersei who did it in the book).

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I liked the first episode. It was heartwarming to see so many characters reunite. But considering how peaceful this episode was I am afraid of what the next ones have in store...

I thought that the main reason why Cersei slept with Euron was because she is pregnant and this way she can tell him that she is carrying his child, hence have even more control over him. That would be a very Cersei kind of move, especially now that Jaime left her.

I am really curious where the story is headed. Both in the show and the books. 

Oh, and about that fairytale-like Dragon riding scene... yeah, it felt like finding a gummy bear while eating spicy snack (not bad, but very out of place), but that face what Drogon made when John kissed Dany made it totally worth it. :laugh:

I'm looking forward to see Jaime and Brienne meet. That's the "romance" I want to see in GOT. :popcorn:

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The second episode:

I was a bit afraid that the second episode in a row that would be only reunions and no action would be redundant, but no. This one was times better than the first one. The dialogues for the most part did not feel super dumb, and there was finally some normal interaction. The fireplace scene was marvelous, with funny but not cheesy funny moments. Also, the Jon's revelation scene was powerful, you can see there is going to be a problem between him and Daeneris. The only really unnecessary thing was Arya sex scene - it just felt so unnatural for both characters, but the writers had destroyed Arya's character for some time. And now she's not only a teenage psycho, but a horny teenage psycho. 

And yeah, not to be nitpicking when they finally found some balance and sense in this series at last, but they also quite dumbed down Tyrion's character. In this episode, he looks like a retarded child with everyone talking about him as a problem. 

Now, the battle episode next week better be REALLY good, since they made so much hype and build-up for it! 

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I still think the northerners should have fled southwards , as much as possible. And bring the White Walkers all the way to King's Landing ... and Dorne ... and the Citadel.

I don't think it's fair for the fight to take place (again) only in the North , when there is so much at stake for the entire continent.

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