Nocturna

Game of Thrones

472 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Lena said:

Well, that was... infuriatingly bad.

[...]

Ok, I need to calm down now. :P

Truly sorry to hear this! I see you've been a bit mollified further down the thread. [I may have downvoted you by accident, so there is a deliberate upvote :)]

The quality of discussion and the passion too have drawn me back into this world. Reviewing the seeds of it all with the kidnapping of Lyanna Stark, the mad king, the rebellion. Robert too busy drinking and whoring to know the parentage of his own heirs. Jon Arryn being all noble and digging for the truth, getting killed, launching the whole thing. Ned following childhood friendship and "loyalty"/"honour" to the shadow of a once-great man - jeopardizing his own life and his entire clan. The North, not really part of these kingdoms, it's needs not respected and it's warnings ignored.

The show and certainly the books deserve a proper ending. By this I don't mean a Hollywood ending but one that is true to the world created and presented to us.

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Literally this. Every single character is ruined for me. Like every single one :P 

Please, GRRM, give us the books ASAP. Please!

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8 hours ago, Imagineer said:
Please, GRRM, give us the books ASAP. Please!

Well well well ... according to "ser Barristan" ... the books nos 6 and 7 are already finished. The author postponed their publication in order not to distract/divert fans from the show's final season.

He says so in this interview, at around 31:40 

 

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1 hour ago, ish said:

Well well well ... according to "ser Barristan" ... the books nos 6 and 7 are already finished. The author postponed their publication in order not to distract/divert fans from the show's final season.

He says so in this interview, at around 31:40 

 

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/13/idiocy-on-the-internet/

You were saying?

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Yup I would doubt that they wouldn’t release the books just because of the show. So yeah we may never get them :P 

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1 hour ago, ish said:

Well ... by bad then ... I would not have expected someone, especially someone involved in GoT, to invent such a thing. Such a Shame!

He probably just believed what he heard on internet, because this is a common rumour among the book fans. Nevertheless, GRRM is being unnecessarily bitchy about it, what else is there left to people than speculating all kind of wild guesses, when he's keeping everyone in dark about his progress. 

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Ok Wow! I'm not watching/following the series so I thought "disappointed" meant, "not up to standard" or "I expected better". Apparently not! If this review is representative of what you're all feeling someone needs to lose their job? (Or there will be a miracle that will somehow save it all and make it O.K. again?) Yikes.

 Game of Thrones Season 8 EP5 (The Bells of Stupidity) Review, Critiques, Anger

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In hindsight ... to a certain extent, I'm not that upset about the destruction of King's Landing. I consider it their tribute, in blood, for their lack of interest and lack of involvement in what the North had always had to deal with (wights, white walkers etc.). I've said before I don't think it was fair for "the real war" to be fought only in the North ... they should have brought the WhiteWalkers further south so that other realms face the threat as well.

The folks of King's Landing did not demand mercy for Ned Stark and would have enjoyed Margaery's walk of shame , even if she was nice to the poor people (even if for the sake of appearances).

Dany sacrificed her dragons and her soldiers ... for what and for who ... ? "so plump little lords like you can enjoy their summer afternoons in peace and comfort" (as Benjen Stark said to Tyrion).

On a different note ... it seems the filming for the GoT prequel pilot has already begun. 

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-prequel-pilot-begins-filming-northern-ireland/

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41 minutes ago, ish said:

In hindsight ... to a certain extent, I'm not that upset about the destruction of King's Landing. I consider it their tribute, in blood, for their lack of interest and lack of involvement in what the North had always had to deal with (wights, white walkers etc.). I've said before I don't think it was fair for "the real war" to be fought only in the North ... they should have brought the WhiteWalkers further south so that other realms face the threat as well.

 The folks of King's Landing did not demand mercy for Ned Stark and would have enjoyed Margaery's walk of shame , even if she was nice to the poor people (even if for the sake of appearances).

Dany sacrificed her dragons and her soldiers ... for what and for who ... ? "so plump little lords like you can enjoy their summer afternoons in peace and comfort" (as Benjen Stark said to Tyrion).

 

That's not fair. None of these people ever elected neither Margaery, nor Daeneris, nor Cersei, nor Ned Stark for that matter, to rule over them, these were born in privilege and plenty. Why should some starving peasant or poor citizen sympathise with game of thrones of the privileged beyond enjoying the spectacle when some of these highborn falls down? And to blame them for North's travails (White Walkers) is ridiculous. It is like blaming random factory workers in Indonesia for the suffering of those afflicted by the war in Ukraine, and implying they should burn for that. 

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But Kinglanders didn't care either about the troubles of those in the North who defended and protected them.

I'm not sure what people in Indonesia have to do, directly, with those in Ukraine , or vice versa. Whereas Northerners have always been a shield and a buffer for those "below" them.

Anyway ... I can't say care more for Kinglanders than for others. And regarding the fact that they did not choose their leaders ... they did not oppose and rise against them either. 

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I still haven't caught up with the latest season, but for what it's worth, my two cents.

Dany's problem isn't the bad genetics she might have or might have not inherited from her father, it's her overblown ego and the tunnel vision that she has in regards of the iron throne. For me it's an example of how ambitions, power and willingness to do anything to achieve what you want, no matter the cost, can corrupt even an initially nice person. And I would say that if one day she burns the khals who wanted to rape her, the next day she executes the masters, not caring that some of them might agree with her but were overruled, the next day she asks Jon to bend the knee, knowing full well that this problem is larger than her ego, then yes, one day she might burn a city to the ground. She might not be mad like her father, but she's ruthless and power hungry and just as unsuited to sit on the iron throne as anyone else there.

And about plot armor, come on, they killed so many interesting characters over the years, I'm fine with a bit of plot armor on the remaining ones.

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1 hour ago, ish said:

But Kinglanders didn't care either about the troubles of those in the North who defended and protected them.

Do we know? In our history and in this one the stories are about the lives of the powerful. Even Dany as enlightened champion of the oppressed is a story about her, the heir to the throne, not those she sought to save.

Did anyone ask the barber or the fish monger what they thought? How about the scullery maid or the seamstress? Agreed the North gets a raw deal. Bend the knee to southern lords who will then ignore your own needs and not even believe you as you bleed defending everyone, including all of their sorry rear ends.

But in how many instances of our history did the elite get overthrown for any reason let alone from sympathy to some unknown benefactor whose benefits you can't confirm and likely don't even believe to be true? Rebellion of the weak is seeded in a people's own oppression and not sympathy to others. These lords would burn and crucify the commoner for even suggesting it (as we've seen in this series as in real life).

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2 hours ago, ish said:

But Kinglanders didn't care either about the troubles of those in the North who defended and protected them.

I'm not sure what people in Indonesia have to do, directly, with those in Ukraine , or vice versa. Whereas Northerners have always been a shield and a buffer for those "below" them.

Anyway ... I can't say care more for Kinglanders than for others. And regarding the fact that they did not choose their leaders ... they did not oppose and rise against them either. 

So, you deserve to die of hunger because your country leaders are not helping fight the climate change in a more significant way? I mean, why should anyone care about your life, you could have overthrown your country leaders, seized the treasury, and redirect it to ecological issues? 

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So, my problems with the last couple of episodes.

I'm sorry, but no, Daenerys killing the Khals and asking Jon to bend the knee in season 7 is not the same as her burning children and peasants on KL. She literally went mad in one episode. Sure she had her reasons, but this all played out way too quickly, probably because D&D wanted to move on to other projects or something. If they wanted to follow the mad queen thing, she should have started going bad in season 7 (no, burnng the Tarlys doesn't count. Remember when Jon killed Janos Slynt just because he made fun of him? when the Night Watch had way too few men? Nobody called him mad then...). Also, they basically showed us that Daenerys was right from day one. This battle lasted five minutes. Just imagine them going to KL when they first arrived in Westeros. Imagine Daenerys' double army and three dragons attacking Cersei who at the time had no scorpions and no golden company. That battle would end in 2 minutes tops and everything would be alright now. As far as we know, literally noone (except for soldiers) died before the bells rung. This means that Varys, Tyrion, Jon, Davos and everyone else was wrong about telling Dany not to attack King's Landing. Why would they do that? It would be much better if it all had played out as all these people imagined, that's is, if just attacking KL would mean the death of innocents. But no "we have to make Dany mad" said D&D. "We don't care about the how".

Arya. Arya's strongest desire for 8 WHOLE SEASONS was to kill Cersei. Literally in the end of the 4th episode, she left Winterfell, obviously believing she would kill Cersei and probably die herself or something. BUT all that was needed to change her mind was a three-second conversation with the Hound. She was literally a floor below Cersei, but no, the Hound asked her to go back home and live her life, so everything is ok. They could have at least included something like her having a discussion with Sansa about not leaving, or her having second thoughts from the previous episodes and than Sandor changing her mind. Alas, none of these. And, I don't know about you, but I expected that the super stealthy ninja that literally two episodes ago killed the Night King for god's sake, would be more than able to find a way to run past the crowds and not get so close to dying like 5 times, by a huge dragon flying over her head... But no, "we need Arya to get close to a random mother and her child so she could then be angry at Danny, so let's have her be as weak as she was 4 seasons ago or sth"...

Cersei did nothing this whole season. She literally died because some bricks fell on her head. That's just sad. And bad writing... She deserved a better death scene.

Jon has yet to do anything in season 8 as well.

Tyrion is doing stuff all the time. They are, however, the stupidest things ever.

Jamie's character developement was thrown out of the window faster than Bran was. And why would he stay with Brienne in episode 4? What did he think they were doing? Going to kindly ask for Cersei to surrender and leave if she said no? The whole relationship with Brienne in episode 4 was so completely uneccessary.

Bran has yet to do anything.

Varys did nothing as well. I expect they just realised that they are dragging him for no reason at all so they had to find a way to get him out of the way.

Bran has yet to do anything...

These are my main problems. There are more unforunatelly, but these are all the big ones. I never expected to not be even a bit excited about the series finale, but I am now not. Let's see...

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Beware, another wall of text is coming up. And Jesus do I hate the quoting system. I can't format the last part for the life of me. I hope you'll just figure out who's who.

 

 

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Could be then to my impression, but to me the actors seemed much more "in love" while in their previous relationships. And the fact that no one considered a political marriage till now as a viable possibility is beyond me, really. Even more if the couple in question is actually in love, what is to lose then. And funny thing is that Daeneris or her councilors never address the issue that she supposedly cannot produce an heir. Even if she wins, who is to succeed her? It looks a tad unrealistic to me that none of them pay any attention to that little fact. 

I didn’t see the thing Dany had with Daario as love and with Drogo things were complicated for a number of reasons. Same with Jon and Ygritte, but of course those two looked more in love because the actors literally were in love. The fact the political marriage is so quickly pushed aside is silly to me as well, but Tyrion addressed the issue of Dany’s infertility in the last season. It’s pretty much what generated the whole “breaking the wheel” idea, that she needs to do something like that because otherwise she will leave a void that will be filled through more violence. I don’t know if Varys knows about her infertility.

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Of course not, but Cersei gets to be a "monster", Robert gets to be a cool badass bro. 

It depends on who you’re asking, from what I notice most people consider Robert a dick (a cool one, but a dick nonetheless). And Cersei isn’t a monster for what she did in relation to Robert, it’s because she blew up a sept full of innocent people out of revenge on a couple of the people in the sept, gave a woman to a zombie for torture and because she didn’t seem to have much care for anyone other than herself (and occassionally her children).

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Will see how it plays out in the end, but regarding her claim to the North, it is just baseless and arrogant, in that regard her claim is no more legitimate than Cersei's. 

She has the right blood ancestors, even Robert was backed up by his distant relation to the Targaryens when he took the throne (the armies helped, but people were eased into it by his Targ blood). Cersei is just the last legitimate king’s wife and the mother of two illegitimate kings. She has more legitimacy, but of course all the legitimacy a ruler really needs is a big-ass army.

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so if they decided that Arya kills NK three years ago, it means this did not come from GRRM.

They didn’t say they decided it, they said they found out. And the timeline is consistent with the moment they realised the show is getting ahead of the books and they need to know what is going to happen if the show is to continue.

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The directors also stated they wanted the audience to forget about Arya until the last moment, so she can come out of nowhere. I find it a very shallow approach to storytelling. The whole series was building up to the moment of final showdown with White Walkers, in order to eliminate them so...anti-climactically. 

This goes into opinion territory, but I personally found it the opposite of shallow and anti-climatic. To me it was very satisfying, especially after the disaster montage and believing everything was lost and the roller-coaster of seeing Arya jump on NK’s back only to be caught by him and almost killed and find the strength to finish the job.

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One of the premises of the series is that shitty behaviour has consequences, and if people are shitty and care about iron chair more than about ultimate evil beyond the wall, they should suffer for it. But they, apart from North, do not. Most of Westeros would probably not even believe northerners if they told them that the whole world was almost wiped out. All those stories and foreshadowing about the Long Night, which fueled most of Jon's, Bran's, Stannis' plots, turned out to be meaningless and solved by a teenage ninja deus ex machina. 

The biggest problem I have with this season is how incredibly rushed it was. It was pretty awesome anyway and it could’ve been amazing had they given more time to certain things, and this is one of them – I think (hope) the book will give us more on the prophecies and the Long night and maybe a restart of the cycle (ka is a wheel).

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I hope you are right, will have to wait for final two episodes, but I think you are giving too much credit to directors. I think the "mad queen" is exactly what they are going for in the end. But I agree with you that what happened recently to Dany would not make her insane, but merely angry. Duh, she had a lonely moment or made a weird face, and suddenly everyone is making her lose her mind. That is totally contrived and unjust, because any other character had such moments as well without being implied they lost their mind. But I do hope this mad queen was just a red herring. 

Ah, this particular part of the conversation didn’t age well. Personally I’m really disappointed in how they handled Daneyers’ character last episode because like you said, angry is one thing, but entirely mad and bloodthirsty is a whole other. I believe this is the route she was always supposed to take, but in taking it in a slower manner, with more steps along the way, it would make sense. Here, they rushed it so much that it feels very out of character. And seeing how Danerys is my favourite character, it’s even more disappointing.

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The point of her flying should be to do reconnaissance, how difficult is it to notice a huge fleet, even if you are not paying attention. Whatever. And how realistic is that Euron got 3/3 shots at first, and then missed Drogon from 10 simultanous shots? 

It looked like she was just giving herself a break and slightly enjoying herself by flying with her dragons. Not that she was scouting (which yes, she should’ve done, had she had at least one decent adviser. I think it was established this season that she does not :P). Rhaegal was hurt (had a whole in his wing and couldn’t even carry Jon) and he has always been smaller and less agile than Drogon because of all the time he stayed in captivity. Once he was hit the first time, it seemed he remained in pretty much the same place, which made the next two shots a lot easier. Drogon, on the other hand, spent a lot more time hunting and roaming freely and also encountered arrows/ ballistas a few times before.

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But aside from her character they also killed Jon's imo. Did he even say anything of importance this season? Because if he did, I truly didn't notice it. He just became Dany's yes-man. And what is this: he goes "ilysm" but then he can't even kiss her? Just f-ing say that you don't want to have a sexual relationship with her because she's your aunt. Say that you support her nevertheless. Like, when she told him "let it be fear then" and "people here don't love me" couldn't he say anything at all? "I believe in you, you can inspire love in these people" or "they don't even f-ing know me here, how can you say that they love me and not you?" or "if they get to know who you really are, you'll become the most loved queen ever". He just stared blankly all the time.

But that’s always been Jon’s character. I mean I agree he’s stupid, but I don’t think that’s a plot hole or a writing mistake, it’s just Jon being Jon. He can absolutely not lie or fake anything, even if the fate of the world depends on it (established multiple times in the show) and is most likely feeling uncomfortable as shit in front of Daenerys because of the fact he knows he is jeopardising her life dream, is his relative and had just betrayed her. He’s in a deep whole as far as she’s concerned and maybe a more clever man would try to dig himself out of it, but Jon is so in over his head he can’t even begin to try.

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I don't have a problem with Dany as the mad queen, and expect it to appear in the books too, but in the show this development felt very rushed and forced. Basically till two episodes ago, she was this goody-two-shoes blabbering about her philanthropy and care for the weak, and just couple of weird facial expressions later, Varys is certain that she is insane and murderous, and should be assassinated. I mean, if she is insane because of being angry at her councilors (who were stupid as hell since season 7) or because of death of her friend, well, Tywin Lannister, Cersei or even Robert Baratheon should have been hospitalised from the go. But yeah, Dany is a Targ, and Targs are crazy, ergo, when Dany is angry, she is insane, when Tywin wipes away entire families, he is shrewd. 

Yes, this! How do you go from being ready to sacrifice everything to save humanity to completely butchering thousands as civilians who had surrendered in the span of two episodes? If she had killed them as collateral damage to get to Cersei or to make the city fall, it would’ve been supported well-enough by what we know about her. But she killed them *after they surrendered*. It’s very out of character if you ask me.

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Cersei's character, in this episode her strategy was utterly stupid, relying solely on couple of balistas and ships, lacking any alternative scenario (I expected her to plant wildfire caches under the whole Red Keep or sth).

She’s never been a military genius (or any sort of genius, for that matter). And she doesn’t seem to have anyone to advise her other than Qyburn (who doesn’t seem to know anything about tactics), a mercenary and that twat Euron – whose character I believe was supposed to be a disaster, he’s batshit crazy in the books and a violence-driven savage, so I don’t see the leap to the show Euron as very big.

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Like, in the last episode, she was a smirking villain, and a day later she turned into a scared little "motherly" figure. 

I guess having your whole life and world collapse around you (metaphorically and literally) will do that to you. And she kept the smirking long enough into the battle, to the point where Qyburn had to basically give her a reality check. It was short, but it was done/ acted so well that I truly felt sorry for Cersei.

 

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I think she did plant some of these, there were definitely some green fires breaking out at places. It makes sense that she didn't think she was going to lose, after all they did kill one dragon, and she really didn't want her baby to die, so I can see why suicide didn't cross her mind. [/quote]

There was a discussion earlier in the show that Aerys planted caches of wildfire all around the city and they found most of them and took them away,  but they can’t be sure there is nothing left. I think it was Tyrion before the Blackwater battle. Those were probably the residues they were talking about, I found it a nice touch to tie Daenerys back to her mad city-slaughtering father (even though I thought she was as far from him as possible).

 

 

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And about plot armor, come on, they killed so many interesting characters over the years, I'm fine with a bit of plot armor on the remaining ones.

 

 

I agree. It’s not like we haven’t had plenty of deaths and realism. Some characters need to survive if we’re going to have a story.

 

 

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Arya. Arya's strongest desire for 8 WHOLE SEASONS was to kill Cersei. Literally in the end of the 4th episode, she left Winterfell, obviously believing she would kill Cersei and probably die herself or something. BUT all that was needed to change her mind was a three-second conversation with the Hound. She was literally a floor below Cersei, but no, the Hound asked her to go back home and live her life, so everything is ok. They could have at least included something like her having a discussion with Sansa about not leaving, or her having second thoughts from the previous episodes and than Sandor changing her mind.

 

 

I thought that was consistent with her character. She has shown a will to live larger than probably anyone else in the story. Just this season we see her fight to stay alive when stronger older more experienced fighters have given up and have been overwhelmed by fear and despair. So she was always going to put life above revenge. She just needed the push to realise this (and Sandor has been almost like a father figure for her and she has seen how bitter his revenge-driven life has become, so coming from him it probably meant even more).

 

 

 

 

This being said, I loved how this episode was built. I don’t like what generated the whole thing (Daenerys abruptly losing it), but everything else was beautiful. The shot of Drogon coming out of the dark above Daenerys’ head, the visuals of the green wildfire blowing up, Cleganebowl, Arya choosing life, seeing the massacre through the eyes of the commoners and completely ignoring Daenerys (never showing her again after she goes on her rampage, just seeing a black death-bringer shooting fire from up above, while faced with the consequences and the complete terror of helpless innocent people).

And most of all, I loved Jaime and Cersei’s death scene. I know a lot of people are upset Cersei wasn’t tortured enough, but to me GOT has never been about characters getting what they deserved. In fact, most characters got pretty much the opposite of it, especially the “good” ones, and that’s ok, because that’s how it happens in life as well. And it was a very touching and even romantic scene, where I actually felt sorry for Cersei. Lena and Nicolas’ acting was spot on and they really sold the turmoil of emotions and it was a beautiful turmoil. It was maybe the strongest and purest love of the story (from Jaime at least and yeah, I say that knowing full well they were siblings, *that’s* how powerful it was) and it moved me.

 

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Kind of surprising to not see much critique of "Cleganebowl". I can see Skallagrim and the other HEMA types rolling their eyes. Sandor is strong. So strong he can push a sword straight through plate amour point blank without any momentum at all! Is that what I saw? Not even through the joins - just straight through the plate itself. What a Man!

Of course The Mountain is unreasonably strong too. So strong that he can walk, wield a sword, pick up a large man one-handed and slam him against a wall after a sword passes clear through and out the other side. Who needs abdominal muscles? Who needs internal organs? Those are for sissies! Don't talk to us about physics and physiology! This is a fight, not some egghead lecture.

But wait, there's more! He can also function just fine after a dagger blade passes through his eye and brain and straight out the back of his skull. Brains are for fools and other advanced invertebrates, not... oh damn! The Mountain had been a White Walker all along! Why didn't I see it before?! (Didn't know Qyburn had this formula.)

The shame is this could have been cinematic, tense, satisfying, tragic and the rest - and also not ridiculous without much effort at all.

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@Figment-of-meI think you missed something, The Mountain had already died. He died after the battle with that prince from Dorne. In the books it was because he got cut by his weapon which was coated with a lethal poison, I can't remember if the TV show followed that exactly. The point is, Qyburn then practiced his dark art to reanimate him, but it wasn't a resurrection. He was not alive, and that's why he did not play by the rules of the human body anymore.

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1 hour ago, NighttimeBird said:

@Figment-of-meI think you missed something, The Mountain had already died. He died after the battle with that prince from Dorne.

[...]

Hi, I didn't forget but I also didn't think this made him unstoppable? If so what does throwing him off a tower achieve - a pointless death for Sandor?

Maybe there are limits to how much his body can take and I'll admit I don't remember these details.

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4 minutes ago, Figment-of-me said:

Hi, I didn't forget but I also didn't think this made him unstoppable? If so what does throwing him off a tower achieve - a pointless death for Sandor?

Maybe there are limits to how much his body can take and I'll admit I don't remember these details.

I don't think it was the "off a tower" that was important there, but rather the "into the fire"

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This makes a nice tribute to the saga. "EPIC Game of Thrones: Light of the Seven (Cover)"

 

It really is pretty epic. This.. group? have at least one other Game of Thrones themed work. Anyone know anything about them? Is PiscesRising their name or the uploader's? Seems like multiple tracks recorded in different locations. This would be great to get involved in.

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